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Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #225 on: January 22, 2018, 05:18:17 PM »
Patrick,
You are right the 16th at ICC and the 14th at MGC are quite similar. It could be due to Walter Hatch being involved on both projects around 1920. I’ll have to ask Jim Kidd this Summer what he may know about his grandfather’s involvement on the 16th.


I see that #10 is one of your favorite holes. It is a great short 4. The crowned green is a challenge to hit and hold. And then you have a real challenge making a putt.


Thanks John, I had not thought of asking Jim Kidd if he had ever heard of anything that connects the two holes. The ICC change was made/completed in 1928, 8 years after Ross' redesign in 1920, 7 after MGC. Would love to hear more about Walter Hatch.

#10 is definitely one of the most demanding 2nd shots on the course. It shouldn't be so hard but it is. Lots of double bogeys from those missing the green and also a contender for green with the most 3-putts on the course.

As a quick aside, caddying for Jim's dad Bill was always a treat and a great memory of mine from growing up there. I've got a few Bill Kidd range balls in my collection from when they dug up and re-did the driving range too.


"The day I can't hit it up past 'sissy ridge' is the day I stop playing golf." -Bill Kidd former ICC Head Pro in reference to the small hill on #7 leading up to the 150-yard marker, ~200 from the tee.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 05:19:58 PM by Patrick Hodgdon »
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Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #226 on: January 22, 2018, 08:34:30 PM »


I also recall there was documentation of Ross responding to the Club's initial advance suggesting he was quite bust and they use Willie Watson. To which the Club responded they indeed wanted Ross and Ross only. There was a great deal of wealth in Duluth at that time. In fact, I believe there was a 40 year stretch in which Duluth had more millionaires per capita than any city in the US.


Chris:


Please find this letter if you can!  It might help explain some of the mystery surrounding the providence of Minnesota's new #1 course.


Also, Ron P tells every club he thinks they have one of Ross's best routings!


I don't recall where I saw/heard the info about Ross coming back to Northland. I know that Brad Klein has a letter in his book in which Ross states he is headed to Duluth. I don't recall the date.


That's too bad that Ron tells everyone the same thing.

V_Halyard

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #227 on: January 22, 2018, 08:42:49 PM »
Pat, so you know. I check this thread like a news feed...
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Terry Lavin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #3 Now Posted
« Reply #228 on: January 22, 2018, 08:45:35 PM »


I also recall there was documentation of Ross responding to the Club's initial advance suggesting he was quite bust and they use Willie Watson. To which the Club responded they indeed wanted Ross and Ross only. There was a great deal of wealth in Duluth at that time. In fact, I believe there was a 40 year stretch in which Duluth had more millionaires per capita than any city in the US.


Chris:


Please find this letter if you can!  It might help explain some of the mystery surrounding the providence of Minnesota's new #1 course.



The Good Lord isn’t involved. I think you mean “provenance”.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #229 on: January 22, 2018, 09:13:24 PM »
Thanks.
I thought so too -- but Tom is smarter than I am so I spent 20 minutes trying to figure out how he might be using 'providence' in relation to White Bear. I thought: maybe he means 'under whose architectural domain does the new No. 1 rightly lie'.
I can rest easier now.


Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #2 Now Posted
« Reply #230 on: January 23, 2018, 11:14:15 AM »
...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 08:30:15 AM by Morgan Clawson »

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted
« Reply #231 on: January 23, 2018, 06:07:49 PM »
#1 – White Bear Yacht Club, Dellwood

And then there was one!

White Bear Yacht Club comes in at the #1 position on our list of the Top 30 courses in Minnesota.

White Bear Yacht Club was originally founded in 1899 as a yacht club for members whom had summer cabins on White Bear Lake, ten miles north of Saint Paul. It wasn’t until 1909 that the club decided to add a golf course. What started as a rudimentary 9-hole course, was expanded to eighteen holes in 1915.

There is some dispute as to whom is most responsible for the design. Willie Watson, who was responsible for early designs at Minikahda and Interlachen, is given a share of the credit by some. While Donald Ross is credited by many as the primary architect of record, based on 1916 news reports which had Ross visiting the club while in town laying out Woodhill and reworking Minikahda. Not to be underestimated is the potential involvement from Tom Vardon (brother of Harry) who was the head professional at the club but was also a golf course architect having laid out the University’s golf course as well as Stillwater CC.

White Bear Yacht Club is also the basis of one of the most famous American novels, The Great Gatsby. Saint Paul native F. Scott Fitzgerald and his wife Zelda rented a room for the summer of 1921 in the clubhouse. During his time there he wrote the short story “Winter Dreams,” the basis of Gatsby which took place in Black Bear Lake, Minnesota.

In the 1990’s Renaissance Golf was retained to create a master plan for the golf course which included restoring green sites, reclaiming mowing lines, removing trees, and building an entire new 8th hole. For the past eight years, Jim Urbina has continued to consult with the club on further improvements to the course.

The golf course is defined largely by its very severe set of greens and extremely rolling fairways. It’s those slopes that have made White Bear into something of a “cult” golf course, as Tom Doak once described it in his Confidential Guide to Golf Courses.

With that, please enjoy the following photos of the golf course which were taken by Jon Cavalier last summer.

Holes to Note
The 1st hole is a 401 yard par-4. The first tee is located just off the golf house and is connected to the club’s practice putting green, separated by just a flag pole. The tee shot is downhill, followed by an uphill approach shot to a green that is partially blinded by a large single mound. The green slopes both away from the mound, as well as back-to-front at its rear.

The tee shot at the 1st

The approach at the 1st with the large greenside bunker looming on the left

The green at the first
Steps from the 1st green is the largely downhill 429 yard par-4 2nd where the player first come in contact with the wild fairway slopes of White Bear.

The approach to the 2nd:
The 3rd hole is a 133-yard par-3, which is typically a short iron or wedge, but to a small green surrounded by a pulpit bunker short right, a bunker long right, and a steep fall off left. A poor swing often results in a difficult up and down for par.

The tee shot at the 3rd

The 3rd from behind
The 4th is the longest par-5 on the golf course at 552 yards. The tee shot can either be played conservatively to the left toward a large bunker and away from out-of-bounds, or an aggressive player can attempt to carry the dogleg to set up a shorter approach shot. The 2nd shot is dictated by a massive swale in the fairway, which if carried results in an 80-yard pitch or a 150 yard, blind, mid-iron from the bottom of a swale.

The tee shot at the 4th

The green at the 4th

The 5th is a difficult 440 yard par-4 which the player hits his tee ball over an active highway to a very extreme fairway. There is a large hump on the left of the fairway which will deflect a tee ball backwards for players playing away from out-of-bounds. The right side of the fairway lends a much easier approach thanks to a flat lie and the ability to see the target. The fun doesn’t end there as the green is very severe with a variety of back-to-front and back-to-front slopes.

The tee shot on the fifth


The second shot into the fifth


Looking back at the fifth

The 6th is a downhill 150 yard par-3 that plays into a corner of the property and looks fairly straightforward at first glance, but in reality is surrounded by a number of greenside bunkers and two water hazards left and right.

The tee shot at the sixth


A more revealing look at the hazards surrounding the sixth


The tranquil scene on the sixth green

The 7th is a short par-5 that plays anything but short. The tee shot must skirt tall grass and bunkers on the right, setting up a roughly 200-240 yard second shot. The green is incredible complex and severe, with a knob on the right side which can cause a 3 putt in the blink of an eye or for a player who leaves a careless pitch for their 3rd, a potential double bogey.

The tee shot at the seventh

The rolling fairway at the seventh

The seventh green complex

The story goes that the original 8th green was a blind par-3 that was bulldozed by a rouge member with a rented bulldozer in the middle of the night in the 1970’s. That resulted in a green located further down a hill but more conventional in nature. The hole was renovated in the 1990’s by Renaissance Golf. The hole is dominated by a bunker, located higher than the putting surface, short right and a steep fall off to the back left of the green. A difficult 189-yard hole.

The eighth from the tee


Looking from behind the eighth green

Depending on the day, the 9th can play anywhere from 470 to 515 yards. A good tee shot leaves the player the option to reach the par-5 in two, by using a huge slope to the right to propel the ball left toward the green which sits at the base of the golf house.

The scenic view from the ninth tee


The approach on the ninth dominated by the large mound on the right


The greensite at the ninth, with the golf house and first tee in the background

The 11th is a 180-yard par-3 plays over a fronting bunker to a green that slopes hugely from back-to-front and gently from right-to-left. The player must either flirt with the fronting bunker or use the back slope to propel the hole toward the pin.

The eleventh

A tiny tee box for the 383 yard 12th sits directly behind the 11th green, requiring yet another tee shot over a highway to a fairway falling away from the player. The second shot is difficult as the putting surface slopes dramatically front-to-back with bunkers both short and long of the green. A player must land their ball short of the putting surface, or use one of the two humps on the front part of the green to roll the ball toward the pin.

The tee shot at the twelfth


The approach to the twelfth from the right fairway bunkers


The green from front...


And from behind

The 514 yard 13th is largely uphill on the tee shot, followed by a number of humps and bumps leading the player to a green that sits on a peninsula surrounded by steep falloffs.

The tee shot at the thirteenth


The green showing the huge fall off to the left

The 336 yard dogleg right par-4 14th requires a long iron or metal wood off the tee, which depending on how closely the player hugs out-of-bounds on the right would either results in a 130-150 yard approach shot to a small green which is sharply divided by a ridge that points toward the right side of the fairway. Therefore the more the player bails out to the left the less depth the player has to work with on the green. As the story goes, Pete Dye was called to the club to consult about redoing the green. After being driven out to the green he stood there in silence for a while, with the green committee watching. Finally, someone asked “well, what do you think?” to which Mr. Dye responded “man, I wish I could get my guys to build greens like that” before getting back in the cart and leaving. The green was never altered.

The tee shot at the fourteenth


Coming around the dogleg


The tiered green from front


And from behind

The 423 yard par-4 15th is the only hole on the course that is defined by one ridge, this one playing diagonally off the tee. This green is also defined by a green which features a left side that is much lower than the right. That day’s pin position (L or R) is shown on a large tree on the inside of the dogleg. The second shot is often blind and at least a mid-iron for most players.

The tee shot at the fifteenth


The green at the fifteenth

The 483 yard par-5 16th can either be played with a conservative long iron off the tee, or a driver played toward (or over) the large bunkers on the inside of the dogleg. If not going for the green in two shots, the layup becomes very important and is dependent on that day’s pin position. The putting surface at the 16th is surrounded by short grass and features a number of humps, knobs, and bumps.

The tee shot at the sixteenth


The beautiful setting at the sixteenth


The green at the sixteenth

The 200 yard 17th is a picturesque par-3 which plays over a pond to a green that is benched into a hillside that is covered in pine trees.

The seventeenth

The 18th is a polarizing one. Some find it to be hugely disappointing, while some find it to be a fitting end to a wild ride. The tee shot is totally blind, played toward a small statue of a white bear. When the player reaches the top of the hill, they are rewarded with a stunning view of the golf house and White Bear Lake in the background. The second shot is often with a short iron or wedge toward a somewhat flat green with a small pond to its right.

The blind tee shot


From the top of the hill


The view toward the eighteenth green


A close up of the green

Largely unheralded for most of its history, White Bear YC has grown in national recognition in recent years. That includes reaching #103 on Golf Magazine's 2017 list of top courses in the United States, #72 on Golfweek's 2017 list of Top 100 Classic Golf Courses, and #191 on Golf Digest's 2016 list of Top 200 Courses in the United States. And now it receives the honor of coming in at #1 on our 2017-2018 Minnesota GCA list.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 09:30:52 PM by PCCraig »
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #232 on: January 23, 2018, 06:25:31 PM »
The white bear on #18 is a new feature (and a bit schlocky).  I don't recall any marker post at all from my early visits.


The story about #14 was told to me by a member the first time I visited.  He could not remember for sure if it was Mr Dye, but it sure sounded like Pete to me, although i never verified it with him.


The story on #8 is inaccurate; I was told that one of the Minnesota architects (I think it was Don Herfort, but I'd have to check my notes) built the new green after the members generally rejected the original, blind hole.  There is no picture of the original that I've seen, and I doubt the club would have approved of going back to it when I was involved.  But the "new" green had about 5 or 6% tilt, so as their greens got faster over the years, they reached a point where any shot that didn't reach the back one-third of the green just rolled back to the front edge.  We retained the basic shape of the green, adding some mounding at the edges while softening the slopes.

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #233 on: January 23, 2018, 06:32:17 PM »
The white bear on #18 is a new feature (and a bit schlocky).  I don't recall any marker post at all from my early visits.


The story about #14 was told to me by a member the first time I visited.  He could not remember for sure if it was Mr Dye, but it sure sounded like Pete to me, although i never verified it with him.


The story on #8 is inaccurate; I was told that one of the Minnesota architects (I think it was Don Herfort, but I'd have to check my notes) built the new green after the members generally rejected the original, blind hole.  There is no picture of the original that I've seen, and I doubt the club would have approved of going back to it when I was involved.  But the "new" green had about 5 or 6% tilt, so as their greens got faster over the years, they reached a point where any shot that didn't reach the back one-third of the green just rolled back to the front edge.  We retained the basic shape of the green, adding some mounding at the edges while softening the slopes.


I believe the bear was added to the 18th this past year. In recent years past there was a white rock on the hill (further left of where the bear currently sits).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 09:26:08 PM by PCCraig »
H.P.S.

Tim Martin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #234 on: January 23, 2018, 07:17:26 PM »
Pat-This has been a great thread. Thanks.

Criss Titschinger

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #235 on: January 23, 2018, 07:29:50 PM »
I think pictures fail to do the scale of the land at WBYC justice. On that, I'm adding some pictures.


5

8



9, and Mr. Sturges is not a short man.



Our own Jason Thurman in the abyss of 13



14, one of my favorite holes I've played



Here's a zoomed shot of 17, the last of a great set of par 3's

BHoover

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #236 on: January 23, 2018, 07:51:44 PM »
So were the greens reclaimed as part of the plan conceived in the 1990s? My guess, without knowing the answer, is they were not. If that’s the case, I would like to see a restored version of WBYC with green sites that match the character of the overall property. Not to suggest that the internal features of the greens are uninteresting, because that’s not the case at all. But I would like to see the greens returned to their original shapes and sizes, as they seem to have become more circular and smaller over time.

I’m also not really a fan of the approach shot on the 18th green or the green itself. I like the blind tee shot, but I’d rather see a stronger finishing hole. But that’s my only criticism of WBYC.

Thanks to Pat and everyone from the Minnesota contingent who contributed to this thread and provided write-ups for the courses.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 07:59:14 PM by BHoover »

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #237 on: January 23, 2018, 08:40:42 PM »
So were the greens reclaimed as part of the plan conceived in the 1990s? My guess, without knowing the answer, is they were not. If that’s the case, I would like to see a restored version of WBYC with green sites that match the character of the overall property. Not to suggest that the internal features of the greens are uninteresting, because that’s not the case at all. But I would like to see the greens returned to their original shapes and sizes, as they seem to have become more circular and smaller over time.



That would likely be a great question for Mr. Doak. I would assume there was a fair amount of expanded greens, but then again, that was 20 years ago now. I know there are some plans to expand certain greens, one in particular being the lower portion of the 14th. Right now the lower tier is pretty small and there is rarely a pin down there, but there is plenty of room to expand the putting surface into the surrounding short grass.


What other greens do you think need to be reclaimed?
H.P.S.

BHoover

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #238 on: January 23, 2018, 11:58:50 PM »
It just seems, based solely on memory, that some of the greens have become more circular than what I thought the original green pads may have been. For example, the 3rd green. I could be wrong, and I’m only basing this on what I remember from a single play. It just seemed to me that tweaks to the greens would make a great course an exceptional one.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #239 on: January 24, 2018, 04:54:29 AM »
I was never involved in a systematic expansion of the greens at WBYC.  I Believe we recommended it on certain holes but it was never pursued, as was generally true for tree removal ... they tended to focus on one or two holes at a time, and a lot of our work was tearing up things that previous architects had built (16 green was one).  If anything, the 14th green looks smaller than I remember it from 20 years ago.


I do think the course would benefit from greens expansion, similar to what we are doing at Crystal Downs now.  But it's not easy work, and I don't know that WBYC has the will to pursue it.  Especially now that they're #1 in Minnesota :)

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2018, 09:29:43 AM »
Pat and Chris - fun to see your photos.

Here's my White Bear Yacht Club photo tour from a few years ago: 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61951.0.html

Jason Topp

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2018, 10:14:38 AM »

White Bear has the most interesting features of any course on the list. The 14th green is my personal favorite although one could make an argument for several others.


 At times I have thought it the clear-cut best course in the state.  At other times I have thought it simply fits in with the top group of courses.


The biggest negative for me is the way several holes are routed so that you climb up and down several hills such as is shown in this Morgan Clawson photo:




White Bear has a lot of these hills perpendicular to the line of play.  They are quite steep and can make the walk a chore on a hot day.  They also are not ideal for golf if too numerous. 


I love hitting tee shots across the road that bisects the course.  On one of them (maybe the 12th) you want to time your tee shot to make sure a truck is not speeding past.   


On the Doak Scale, White Bear received 9 votes for 8 and 1 vote for a 7.  I gave it a 7 but I only gave two 7's and a dozen 6's. 


For me, White Bear and Northland are the courses in Minnesota worth making a special trip to see but you are cheating yourself if you do not sample a wider selection of courses in the state.


Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #242 on: January 24, 2018, 10:21:15 AM »
Hoov -

This aerial from 1937 of the 9th green left and 18th green right show that these 2 greens were quite round.

Minnesota Historical Society

The 3rd green seems like it's just about maxed-out the green pad to me.

I think a foot or two could be gained in a few places like the right side of 17.

Tom Doak - the 16th green is magnificent.  Surely one of the best in the state.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 10:23:58 AM by Morgan Clawson »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #243 on: January 24, 2018, 11:20:41 AM »
WBYC is one of my all time favorite places to play. It belongs in the top 50 of all the courses in the US. I loved the terrain, green sites and shots into and around the greens that demand precision, clear strategy, and imagination.
If I had one club to join in MN it might be WBYC or Soring Hill. My only complaint amd it Sint really a complaint is the bunkering. I felt the bunkering could be better placed. It is not they are are dreadful, they just don't have the same quality as the rest of the course. Brilliant place in a stunning setting.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #244 on: January 24, 2018, 11:32:30 AM »
One reason WBYC holds such great appeal is its sense of isolation. Homes, streets or both have an impact on almost every other course on this list (Northland being a near-exception), but for most of your day at WBYC, you see nothing but golf course and woods. Of course, that excludes one of the quirkiest features of the course: the tee shot over Dellwood Road on #5. But that's pretty much a blip.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #245 on: January 24, 2018, 03:22:17 PM »
One reason WBYC holds such great appeal is its sense of isolation. Homes, streets or both have an impact on almost every other course on this list (Northland being a near-exception), but for most of your day at WBYC, you see nothing but golf course and woods. Of course, that excludes one of the quirkiest features of the course: the tee shot over Dellwood Road on #5. But that's pretty much a blip.

I thought you teed off over the road on #12. And #12 had my favorite green too.

I loved WBYC and was very glad to have the opportunity to play there. The previous pro was not the nicest head pro I have ever talked to. I guess he was just overly protective of the course.
Mr Hurricane

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #246 on: January 24, 2018, 03:37:00 PM »
One reason WBYC holds such great appeal is its sense of isolation. Homes, streets or both have an impact on almost every other course on this list (Northland being a near-exception), but for most of your day at WBYC, you see nothing but golf course and woods. Of course, that excludes one of the quirkiest features of the course: the tee shot over Dellwood Road on #5. But that's pretty much a blip.

I thought you teed off over the road on #12. And #12 had my favorite green too.

I loved WBYC and was very glad to have the opportunity to play there. The previous pro was not the nicest head pro I have ever talked to. I guess he was just overly protective of the course.


Jim,


The back tee on #12 is located on the other side of the highway, while all of the men's tees on #5 require a tee shot over the road.
H.P.S.

Jon Cavalier

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #247 on: January 24, 2018, 03:46:21 PM »
The white bear on #18 is a new feature (and a bit schlocky).  I don't recall any marker post at all from my early visits.









I dig the bear.  Makes for a cool silhouette at the top of the hill against the sky.  Too cute by half? Perhaps. But I thought it suited the relaxed nature of the course and the club well.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Jon Cavalier

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #248 on: January 24, 2018, 04:03:09 PM »
Here are a few additional photos of WBYC that did not make it into Pat's writeup:



1st green



7th green


8th green


14th green


15th green


17th hole


17th green


18th green
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #249 on: January 24, 2018, 04:11:26 PM »
The white bear on #18 is a new feature (and a bit schlocky).  I don't recall any marker post at all from my early visits.









I dig the bear.  Makes for a cool silhouette at the top of the hill against the sky.  Too cute by half? Perhaps. But I thought it suited the relaxed nature of the course and the club well.

Like Jon, I was digging the bear too. I like a place that is relaxed. Too many uptight places in this world as it is.
Mr Hurricane

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