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David_Tepper

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Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2017, 10:58:34 PM »
I don't think you can consider Brora to be in the "raw" category at all any more. True, the rough is still patrolled by the grazing livestock and you have to side step the occasional bit of dung, but the fairways & greens are rather well maintained these days. 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:16:04 PM by David_Tepper »

Charles Lund

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Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2017, 11:05:47 PM »
I'd agree that the Doak ratings don't capture the appeal of a course like Cruit Island in the way a narrative summary does.  My subjective experience of thinking about Brora as I drove in as an automatic association speaks to a relevant comparison group.  I also think the Doak 4 rating should be interpreted in the context of ratings of County Donegal courses in the Confidential Guide.


The courses seem to have not been reviewed extensively and some not recently.  The highest individual rating for a course was one 7 by a single rater.  Neither of the Ballyliffin courses has been seen since 2006.  Here is a summary of the rstings:



Ballyliffin Old  5 6 5- [2006]
Ballyliffin Glashedy -5- - [2006]
Bundoran 2 - - - [1983]
Cruit Island 4 - - - [2013]
Donegal GC 5 5 6 – [1996]
Dunfanaghy 4 - - - [2013]
Narin and Portnoo 6 6 - - [2013]
Portsalon 6 6 - - [2007]
Rosapenna Old TM 5 6 6 – [2013]
Rosapenna Sandy Hills 5 - 7 – [2014]


Maybe it is the raw quality of the courses that suppresses the ratings and paradoxically contributes to endearing experiences many of us have visiting the area.  In any event, they have not been adversely impacted by excessive overseas tourism from North America.


Charles Lund

Tom_Doak

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Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2017, 10:22:34 PM »

Ballyliffin Old  5 6 5- [2006]
Ballyliffin Glashedy -5- - [2006]
Bundoran 2 - - - [1983]
Cruit Island 4 - - - [2013]
Donegal GC 5 5 6 – [1996]
Dunfanaghy 4 - - - [2013]
Narin and Portnoo 6 6 - - [2013]
Portsalon 6 6 - - [2007]
Rosapenna Old TM 5 6 6 – [2013]
Rosapenna Sandy Hills 5 - 7 – [2014]

Maybe it is the raw quality of the courses that suppresses the ratings and paradoxically contributes to endearing experiences many of us have visiting the area.  In any event, they have not been adversely impacted by excessive overseas tourism from North America.



Charles:  I am quite a fan of "raw" courses actually, though I have tended to rate them a point below what I might think of them architecturally, knowing that few of my readers are as comfortable with those conditions as I am.


I love the courses in Donegal [and hope to have the chance to add to the roster soon], but the only one of those courses that I think has a bunch of great holes is Narin & Portnoo, which might have got a 7 from me were it not for the ill-advised lengthening of the course a few years ago.  A course just can't get a 7 from me unless there are a bunch of holes I'd like to take with me.  Portsalon has a few very good ones, too.


I did not play at Cruit Island; I only walked it late in the afternoon on a stormy day in March.  There are some wild holes there, but on several of them I really couldn't tell where you were supposed to go.

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How ra do you dare?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2017, 01:02:05 AM »
It's clear that the raters for the Confidential Guide have quite a bit of agreement in their ratings.  Infrequently do ratings vary by more than one point on the scale when there are multiple ratings.  The ratings often reflect how courses are ranked within a specific country or region. I would infer that the four raters have a good idea of what they are rating and how they are applying the standards used, due to this level of agreement.


I can see how raters using the scale might adjust downward by a point when "rawness" extends to marginal conditions or when rawness becomes a feature detracting from the experience of playing the course.



In terms of measurement, the Doak scale would seem to meet standards for reliability and validity, as behavioral scientists speak of when they look at issues of measurement in their efforts to quantify concepts with ratings when there isn't an obvious physical dimension involved.  What I like about the Doak Scale is that it rates courses in terms of the effort, time, and resources that one with an appreciation of golf course architecture would expend if that person were allocating time, effort, and resources in relation to course quality.  For the less than elite courses, it seems to recognize those that are worth expending some effort to see while in some proximity.


I'm fine with how the scale deals with the Donegal courses.  For many, if not most, there was limited professional input from highly respected architects.  After my first trip to Ireland, I made a point of returning to the Donegal area for reasons that have less to do with playing at the best of the best.  I decided to look at returning to Ireland, particularly Donegal, because it was an affordable way to play quite a bit of links golf, and I found the courses to welcome a solo golf traveler.  I've probably spent close to eight months in Ireland on eleven trips and have spent about six months of that time in Donegal.  So the courses are accessible and affordable to the extent that someone can do a three or four week trip and play golf in an environment not like what we find in the U.S.  Over time, I have found ways to cut costs so travel there has become more economical.


If someone has played the eight or ten must play courses covered in a first trip to Ireland and is looking for something else, Donegal is very good choice.


Charles Lund

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2017, 01:28:47 AM »
I learned golf in a cow pasture. I don't understand the emphasis people put on conditioning. It's about the golf and the puzzles it presents,  not the grass.

However,  grass does matter when it hides the ball that we need to play the game with. Therefore,  often sheep maintain golf courses better than humans do.

Are architects going to step up and design rough golf courses? Probably not so much, as there is not going to be much money in it. I guess that makes Eddie Hackett a personal hero of mine. Maybe Les Furber too, but I haven't played anything by him.

If you highly value conditioning maybe you need to ask yourself if you a connoisseur,  or just a bore.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2017, 03:14:59 AM »
I love the courses in Donegal [and hope to have the chance to add to the roster soon], but the only one of those courses that I think has a bunch of great holes is Narin & Portnoo, which might have got a 7 from me were it not for the ill-advised lengthening of the course a few years ago.  A course just can't get a 7 from me unless there are a bunch of holes I'd like to take with me. Portsalon has a few very good ones, too.

I agree.  Yet, somehow N&P manages to be considerably less than its parts.  I don't care at all for the 5s, the start or the middle of the round.  N&P is the very definition of inconsistent.  The club should have worked on the weak sections of the design instead of seeking more shots on par.  Now, of course, the green fee isn't so cheap so its even more difficult to overlook the dull passages. All in all, a big missed opportunity.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:14:47 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2017, 04:49:45 AM »
3 x par-5’s one after another on the back-9 probably don’t aid appreciation of N&P but the 10th is a fine par-5 and the 2nd is I would suggest a better hole than it’s initial appearance suggests.
Lots of good stuff at N&P. Shame it’s slightly out of the way relative to other Donegal courses. A very nice combination in one day with Cruit Island though.
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2017, 01:53:49 PM »
I love the courses in Donegal [and hope to have the chance to add to the roster soon], but the only one of those courses that I think has a bunch of great holes is Narin & Portnoo, which might have got a 7 from me were it not for the ill-advised lengthening of the course a few years ago.  A course just can't get a 7 from me unless there are a bunch of holes I'd like to take with me. Portsalon has a few very good ones, too.

I agree.  Yet, somehow N&P manages to be considerably less than its parts.  I don't care at all for the 5s, the start or the middle of the round.  N&P is the very definition of inconsistent.  The club should have worked on the weak sections of the design instead of seeking more shots on par.  Now, of course, the green fee isn't so cheap so its even more difficult to overlook to dull passages. All in all, a big missed opportunity.

Ciao


I agree with most of that.
 See links on other thread-sad that the loss of charm could also bring down the club.
Holes 5-11 are pretty special and 12 and 13 aren't bad so I have to disagree about the "middle"


I do think you are correct that it manages to be less than its parts.
Once such a perfectly hidden gem-I think the CG says it best when it sums it up by saying "now it just takes 45 minutes longer to play"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2017, 12:20:09 PM »
If you highly value conditioning maybe you need to ask yourself if you a connoisseur,  or just a bore.



con·nois·seur          [känəˈsər,ˌkänəˈso͝or]
an expert judge in matters of taste.

bore1                      [bawr, bohr]
[size=78%]2.  [/size]a dull, tiresome, or uncongenial person.
[/size]3.  [size=78%]a cause of ennui or petty annoyance:
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2017, 12:43:36 PM »
I really liked N&P after the first 4 holes.  The 3 back to back par 5s are an odd routing but I don't think any of them is a bad hole.


As to the original question, there's no doubt that, for me, the conditioning at Askernish reduced my enjoyment of the course.  That was principally down to two things - the rough was so thick that any missed fairway meant a lost ball and the roughness of the greens meant that putting was a complete lottery on what should have been an interesting set of greens.  If Askernish was maintained like Kington it would be in the top 10 in the UK.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2017, 12:42:18 AM »
FWIW, I can't consider Cruit Island 'raw'.  I found the turf quite well maintained.   Mulranny, yes - raw.   A 4 for Cruit is low, IMHO.  Mulranny 3 for the raw but fun experience - near pasture golf with cows roaming.  Cruit, more like a 6, there are at least 4 or 5 excellent holes there with scenery to boot.  I wonder if Cruit isn't a top 5 nine holer in the world.  And the superintendent is a GCA.com lurker.   ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2020, 10:34:33 AM »
bump-
it's January...
Have some recent thoughts on recent travels but don't want to derail this thread yet.
Can update that my beloved Goat has at least expanded the greens a bit and reduced the large rough collars(as of this last season)and some actual fescue turf has reemerged in spots in the fairways.
Not due to any additional funding-more likely less, but a slightly different thought process.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 10:38:02 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2020, 10:49:42 AM »
I agree with the sentiment that Ran should get to Mulranny -- but I doubt that GOLF Magazine is going to send him there for an in-depth story.  I saw it two days after Cruit Island, and that might be part of the reason why I wasn't so big on Cruit.  Mulranny trumped it in terms of rawness.


GOLF DIGEST this month has a feature story about a one-hole pop-up course at 14,000 feet at the base of Mount Everest.  Golf in Nepal is raw -- that's another place Ran needs to go.


A couple of years ago I had a client in China who was interested in building something really and truly raw, but it didn't pan out.  I won't say the concept out loud because I am hoping I will get to build it somewhere, myself.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2020, 11:10:09 AM »
Mulranny...
It's now been 17 years since i was there.....


Re:Ran-he has some good thoughts on dormant bermuda in above thread. One of my favorite surfaces.(that said on a course that get heavy winter play such as Long Cove, fairways can get really dicey-especially in collection areas- by February/March)
ironically, though I prefer dormant bermuda fairways, I think I preferred the old lightly overseeded greens as dormant bermuda greens with new strains are simply getting too fast in winter and leading to boring pins at best and poor redesign choices at worst.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2020, 11:39:15 AM »
Jeff

I continue to be impressed by how well some of these wee courses are presented. They are priced like raw courses, but deliver well above their weight.

This past 18 months I have made several visits to Alnmouth Village.  It has never been in less than good nick...and once it was incredible. 

Castlerock Bann...my, my, what a punch this course delivers in terms of quality architecture and presentation for a paltry sum. 

I have gone back to the much more talked Reigate Heath a few more times and it retains some of its original sandy nature with some incredible bunkers...nicely eroded and well set. This costs a bit more than the above courses, but in a neighbourhood of extravagance, RH holds its head high with good conditioning in a bit of a raw state. 

All the above are 9 holers and absolutely well worth an extra day to see.  Do not fly by night these places...play them several times.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 05:29:26 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2020, 11:51:08 AM »
I'd agree that the Doak ratings don't capture the appeal of a course like Cruit Island in the way a narrative summary does.  My subjective experience of thinking about Brora as I drove in as an automatic association speaks to a relevant comparison group.  I also think the Doak 4 rating should be interpreted in the context of ratings of County Donegal courses in the Confidential Guide.


The courses seem to have not been reviewed extensively and some not recently.  The highest individual rating for a course was one 7 by a single rater.  Neither of the Ballyliffin courses has been seen since 2006.  Here is a summary of the rstings:



Ballyliffin Old  5 6 5- [2006]
Ballyliffin Glashedy -5- - [2006]
Bundoran 2 - - - [1983]
Cruit Island 4 - - - [2013]
Donegal GC 5 5 6 – [1996]
Dunfanaghy 4 - - - [2013]
Narin and Portnoo 6 6 - - [2013]
Portsalon 6 6 - - [2007]
Rosapenna Old TM 5 6 6 – [2013]
Rosapenna Sandy Hills 5 - 7 – [2014]


Maybe it is the raw quality of the courses that suppresses the ratings and paradoxically contributes to endearing experiences many of us have visiting the area.  In any event, they have not been adversely impacted by excessive overseas tourism from North America.


Charles Lund


Dunfanaghy -4...
have played it 6 times and personally rank it higher
The highs of Dunfanaghy holes 6-10 and 16(green!)-17 (all epic) negate the perceived lows of the rest of the course-which some may consider repetive or mundane. I happen to enjoy the relaxed nature, simplicity and walkability of the other holes and the course is a wonderful compliment to the wild and wooly courses nearby (Narin and Portnoo, Cruit, Portsalon and soon to be three courses at Rosapenna) Gweedore is in a similar camp as Dunfanaghy as the uniqueness and environment of several holes allows me to forgive a few others some might consider mundane-but the lay of the land greens never disappoint.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2020, 12:52:38 PM »
The highs of Dunfanaghy holes 6-10 and 16(green!)-17 (all epic) negate the perceived lows of the rest of the course-which some may consider repetive or mundane. I happen to enjoy the relaxed nature, simplicity and walkability of the other holes and the course is a wonderful compliment to the wild and wooly courses nearby (Narin and Portnoo, Cruit, Portsalon and soon to be three courses at Rosapenna) Gweedore is in a similar camp as Dunfanaghy as the uniqueness and environment of several holes allows me to forgive a few others some might consider mundane-but the lay of the land greens never disappoint.
Echo this and the positive comments about The Bann made by Sean above.
As to ‘rawness’, I wouldn’t say conditioning is raw, more it’s as it’s should be, it really doesn’t need to be any better, which is something that some of the bigger name courses, where conditioning has become OTT, have moved away from. Sometimes course locations and terrains and soils etc etc are such that a big maintenance crew and lots of machines and this a big budget aren’t needed.
Atb


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2020, 01:05:35 PM »

Echo this and the positive comments about The Bann made by Sean above.
As to ‘rawness’, I wouldn’t say conditioning is raw, more it’s as it’s should be, it really doesn’t need to be any better, which is something that some of the bigger name courses, where conditioning has become OTT, have moved away from.


Not only does it not need to get better, OTT is actually detrimental with overly tight from mowing height making chipping and pitching overly dicey and high green speeds causing troubling in merely moderate winds....
There are literally hundreds of courses in the UK and Ireland with minimal budgets that present ideal surfaces for putting contour and dealing with wind and firm,yet grassed surfaces surrounding the greens.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2020, 02:18:42 PM »
A 4 on the Doak Scale is a good course, just one that most people wouldn't pay a lot of money to play.  I don't mean that in a derogatory way; it's just that if I gave these courses a 6, people would expect something they don't deliver.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2020, 02:40:23 PM »
A 4 on the Doak Scale is a good course, just one that most people wouldn't pay a lot of money to play.  I don't mean that in a derogatory way; it's just that if I gave these courses a 6, people would expect something they don't deliver.

I much prefer it when you use your Doak scores as travel recommendations rather than quality assignments. The scale makes much more sense to me when used this way.  That said, for many of these raw courses, the Doak Scale doesn't quite work because 3s and 4s scare people off when that isn't the intention.  Its almost as if for these type of courses which you really like and want people to see should come with more text and simply a recommendation to see the course if the text sounds agreeable.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2020, 05:22:17 PM »
Dunfanagy 4 sounds right to me.
However, it seems too high given some of the other links courses he has rated 3. To me a true links is always better than an "average" course.

Not a fan of the Bann course. With lack of width, and penal rough, I'm surprised Jeff hasn't given them a talking to like he did at North West. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2020, 05:31:12 PM »
I have long believed that most any links is at least a 4, probably 5.

I lost a few balls around Bann my first go before I realized laying up was a proper option.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 05:33:14 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2020, 05:36:27 PM »
I have long believed that most any links is at least a 4, probably 5.

I lost a few balls around Bann my first go before I realized laying up was a proper option.

Ciao

Which architect had the build them so they lay up principle? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2020, 06:08:38 PM »
Mulranny was a total surprise. Would be great in the back yard.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How raw do you dare?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2020, 06:59:01 PM »
I have long believed that most any links is at least a 4, probably 5.

I lost a few balls around Bann my first go before I realized laying up was a proper option.

Ciao

Which architect had the build them so they lay up principle? ;)

I don't understand the question.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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