Do you like the 10th at Alpine?

[Mike_Cirba]

It seems to me to be one of those holes where one's opinion tells a lot about their taste in architecture.

It's a mere 339 yards from the tips, yet is the 4th ranked handicap hole.  

How to describe it?  Well, it plays SEVERELY uphill, probably more like 400yards.  The tee is tight against OB right which runs the length of the hole.  Any tee shot that over-favors the left side leaves an approach emcumbered by overhanging trees.  The green itself is very small, elevated even further than it's surrounds, perched almost at the top of the hill, but falling off sharply to the right side.  The left front is actually false, and it's easily possible to spin a ball of the green on that side.

The green is probably less than 4,000 sq. feet, and has a steep cant from back to front, but it's more complicated than that, with swirls from right to left in the front, but raised edges that create a vortex of sorts in other sections.

So, for those who've played it, is this Tillinghast at his most adventurously creative, or Tillie tipping a few too many from his ever-present flask?  

For those who haven't, what's your gut impulse on this type of hole?  

[John_Lovito]

Mike,

I like the 10th at Alpine.  It’s certainly not a hole you come across often.  It is quite steep and is difficult from tee to green.  The approach shot is a lot of fun as it is very difficult to determine the correct club given the steepness of the hill.  Also, like all of the greens at Alpine, putting is a challenge.

John

[GeoffreyC]

Mike

The 10th at Alpine is OK and I certainly would not change it in any way.  It's more like a continuous uphill Baton Death March then the attack of a fortified hilltop fortress.

I prefer holes like #10 at Yale, #13 (?) at Myopia Hunt and #9 at Shinnecock Hills for uphill approaches. Those do or die shots are more thrilling.

There was some talk of softening the 10th green at Alpine and I would NOT like to see that happen.  The hole is playable and challenging.

[GeoffreyC]

Bill

You beat me by 24 seconds.  Great minds think alike  

[Mike_Cirba]

Would we have the same reaction to a steeply downhill hole?  

Why do they get a free pass?  

Seriously, I wonder about the psychological dynamic where a hole which drops 50 feet or more from the tee is not only acceptable, but desirable, while one that plays in the opposite way is often castigated.

In fact, one of the things that William Flynn is often complimented for in his designs on tough properties is how he manages the uphill holes rather deftly, often by working around the problem, so to speak, or through short par fours (similar to the 10th at Alpine).  

Is a hole that directly ascends a steep slope on a straight line such a bad thing, or does it lend variety to a layout?  Given the yardage (339 yards), I believe the 10th at Alpine is more than fair in its stringent demands.  

Evidently, Tillinghast called the 10th a "sick hole", so even the designer wasn't unaffected by this strange uphill phobia.

[Mike_Cirba]

Due to the overwhelming silence here, perhaps I should ask this a different way...
 
Does anyone have a steeply uphill hole that they like and would care to defend here?

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

My gut instinct is that I'd love the hole.  I am a masochist at heart when it comes to this silly game, as long as the hole is somehow unique... My love for the old version of #12 Bayonet speaks volumes here.  Sticking to NorCal, #1 Tilden Park is another fave for me... We're talking very difficult, very long uphill golf holes, where any par is cause for celebration.  Now I wouldn't want a course of 18 of these, but the one unique instance is pretty cool in my book.

TH

[NAF]

The 10th at Alpine has been known by a variety of names in the club's history, Cardiac Hill, the Ski Hill etc.  From what I can ascertain, Tillinghast wanted the hole to dogleg to the right but an adjacent farm's property could not be found.  What people who play it now don't realize is that trees used to run up the left side and the fairway was more crowned than it is now which made for a much scarier tee shot.

In working on the club history I also found a blurb that talked about stretching the hole back another 100 yards from the current white tees to make the hole 430 yards.  Now that would have been a terror.

The real thrill of the hole once you get to play it several times is the green which contains a huge right to left swirl if you were putting from the back to a front left pin placement and vice versa if you were putting to a front right.  Plus the back slope of the green is about a 10% grade.  Something the club has been talking about flattening due to the fact that it is possible to putt off the green during the late fall and early spring.  I have been fighting some members about not changing it and the membership is split.  Some feel the 10th defines Alpine and I agree that it should not be changed.  Some pros who played in a tournament at the club earlier this year all complained that they were spinning approaches off the green.  I said, who cares about them, they come once a year!

I have some pix of the 10th hole if anyone would like to put them up for me..

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel;

Perhaps Mr. Turner would be so kind?  

[mike_malone]

 Mike Cirba
 I always enjoyed the uphill hole at Cobbs(#9 or #7 depending on the routing).It runs along township line rd.It is under 300(265 i think).There is a huge tree to avoid on left.There is a treeline right.The blind green has a severe right to left slope.

[Dan Kelly]

Gut instinct: sounds great to me.

I love an uphill Bataan death march (with or without Baton!) --so long as the hole is designed such that success is possible with a series of well-struck shots. Sounds like that's the case here.

One I remember liking a lot was a long par-4 on the back side at Princeville. Can't remember the number.

Another was No. 10 (?) at Northland in Duluth -- about which Mr. Shefchik can talk from great experience.

Another is No. 10 at a Twin Cities course called Hillcrest C.C. -- which sounds VERY much like this No. 10 at Alpine.

[Matt_Ward]

People should have played the original 10th hole -- before the club widenmed the fairway to what you see today. I can remember many high school matches where double-bogey could claim the hole.

I believe a very gentle softening of the green would work best given the nature of today's green speeds and for the wherewithal to provide a few more pinnable areas on the putting surface.

I have to say the hole was among the ten toughest in the MGA section a few years back regarding overall scoring average because of the terrain and the green.

One last thing -- many people often forget the well placed tree that guards the left side of the fairway. Go too far to that side of the fairway and the second becomes more daunting.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

My good man -- I'm referring to the fact that the issue of "playability" has long been discussed among the Jersey golf scene regarding Alpine's famed 10th hole!

The hole was especially demanding and provided very little opportunity for sound play PRIOR to the changes made. The hole is still quite demanding and as I previously stated I believe a very gentle softening of the green would only serve to make the hole even more enduring for years to come.

[Mike Hendren]

Due to the overwhelming silence here, perhaps I should ask this a different way...
 
Does anyone have a steeply uphill hole that they like and would care to defend here?

Mike,

It's been fifteen years or so, but I fondly recall the 10th at Wild Dunes.  Maybe 300 yards straight uphill with the fairway falling off on either side.   Also, the start of a nice four hole stretch that is overlooked due to the rightful malignment of this course in recent years.  

Regards,

Mike

[Steve Lapper]

Redanman,

   Don't apologize...I agree with you

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I agree with your take regarding the player who doesn't hit the ball far because the severity of the rise at the 10th at Alpine only makes the holes even harder for those folks.

The better player can hit a 3-metal or long iron and then proceed from that point.

I enjoy uphill holes -- have to say I found the 9th at Cordillera Mountain to be one of the worst of its kind.

The issue with the 10th at Alpine is the degree of slope the existing green provides. Given the close cutting that takes place today the speed of the green leaves a very limited pinnable area. There's been talk of leveling the back portion of the green to a small degree and I don't see how that would harm the hole because it's still a demanding two-putt.

When you have extreme uphill holes you are bound to cause a majoir headache for someone because you must C-A-R-R-Y the ball a good ways in the air. Clearly, such a hole would not be built today. I give credit to the club for widening the hole from what it was previously -- one should see the picture listed next tot he club's bio in the superb Bill Quirin book -- Golf Clubs of the MGA. The former holes was indeed
i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g.

[NAF]

Matt,

That is why I don't want the green replaced because it is INTERESTING. Why change things, you see what happened to #14 at Alpine in the name of change.  As a member who plays the hole 20-30 times a year, I don't see the need to flatten the back of the hole in order to provide one more pinnable location.  I think one of the charms of the hole is knowing that if you want to guarantee a two putt, then lay up short of the false front and play a chip and 2 putts to take your 5 and run.  If you want to challenge the cup with 8 iron to wedge in your hands than take the consequences of that steep/vortex green.  I think too much gets thrown into cuppability and pin placement and overanalysis of what the golfer needs.  The 10th at Alpine is a throwback and has charm to it.  The membership is split 50/50 on what to do with the hole and even Gil Hanse who I have tremendous respect for thinks the back of the green should be softened.  As someone who plays their regularly I disagree and many of you who I have brought to Alpine agree with me.  

We changed the 14th hole already and I putted off the front from 6 feet above the hole with Mike Cirba watching this past weekend.  This green has had its front raised twice and still this happened.  That is the way things go in October and early spring when the blades of grass are thin.

Another note, Geoff Childs, my greens chair and myself visited Baltimore CC another Tillie course a few months ago and I was not particularly impressed with some of the softened greens there.  Of course, I did not see them before hand but BCC wants to host another big tournament and Alpine does not so I don't think we need to sacrifice charm (or my definition of charm) in the name of fairness and one extra cup location.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I'm going to have to check out that pic tonight.  I have the book but don't recall seeing the pic.  

Tight, huh?

Noel;

I agree that the present 10th green should be preserved.  The whole hole is anachronistic and uniquely fun, and I don't think flattening the back would improve it.

Glad you mentioned your putt on 14.  You know I wouldn't have!

Of course, neither of us broke any records, but it was a great day on a very cool course, nevertheless.  

[Matt_Ward]

NAF:

I never said "replace" the green -- I said a gentle tweaking. There's a difference as you know from our discussions offline on this topic.

[NAF]

Paul Turner will post the pix of Alpine #10 tonight so stay tuned.

Matt, I understand your "tweak" philosophy in spirit but in practice I bet they don't tweak it but ruin it.  All of the greens at Alpine that have been worked on are the least fun to putt with the exception of #4 which is still fun but the area they flattened (the upper right part) is boring. Just think how dull #2, #5, #8 and #14 are now. 14 still has some interest because of how severe it once was but is a shadow of its former self for a short par 4 that had a devilish green.

I think the greater ? for Alpine is what to do on #6 green.  I'd rather they soften that green than #10 b/c it doesnt seem a green Tillie would do, it just evolved that way. BTW, can you believe we are adding another back tee on #6!  Also on #11 although I think that might be somewhat cool for the new angle.


Mike, that wasnt a bad putt either on #14. It is just that time of year.  It can happen to anyone, I didnt get upset.

[Matt_Ward]

The issue for many courses that present greens with a good degree of slope / pitch is how they are presented on a daily basis given the nature of green speeds that exist in the game today. I would venture to say that if Tillie were alive today he would have something to say about greens that are "warped" to the speeds you see today on top of the contouring that was originally envisioned.

The 10th at Alpine is a hole that would likely never be re-created because of the abruptness of the terrain. For those who have not played the hole it would be possible to have ski contest from the green back to the tee -- that's how sever the land is.

The former hole was truly mind-boggling and quite likely among the most talked about holes in the Met Section. Like I said before -- I believe for a few years hole was among the ten highest stroke averages in the entire region -- that's quite a statement given the lack of length involved. I for one am glad it was modified to what one sees today. That same philosophy is what I have in mind for the green.

The 10th green today has very little pinnable areas. It most instances the same areas must be used time after time. I'm not advocating or suggesting that the green be increased in size or that it be completely flattened. But, what you see at Alpine is not of character with a number of the old courses (one should see the nature of the slopes on many of the greens at nearby Montclair GC in West Orange).

If you take the existing green and simply lower the pitch in the rear section by a slight amount you maintain the challenge but provide some degree of sensibility.

I get a chuckle out of people who usually lob me in the category of defending layouts with the highest degree of difficulty and now when we get to courses with "unusual" features like the slope on some of the greens from olden days you get other folks who champion that they be preserved "as is."

Noel -- I hear what you say about being wary of people "tweaking" greens from Tillie -- you know my comments on what was done at the 14th (a very sensitive tweaking was needed but unfortunately was overly done IMHO).

Alpine has so much to offer but the key aspects that will take it to another level should be emphasis in the following areas:

1). Upgrade all the bunkers -- possibly include a few new fairway bunkers.

2). Cut down a number of the trees -- the course is still choked with too much lumber.

3) Cut down on H20 that's applied to the fairways. The emphasis should be on the golf -- not just making Alpine a green wonderland.

4). Add just a bit of length on a few holes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Noel;

Just teasing about the 14th.  If my putt didn't find the hole, I would have been following you.  

Looking forward to seeing the pics!

Also, having seen any number of classic greens "recontoured" for the sake of modern green speeds, I can say that only VERY rarely is the final result anywhere near as good as what it replaced.

[Paul_Turner]

I'll comment later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

P Turner,

Great pictures, although I think the second one gives a better perspective relative to the steep incline that the hole climbs.

Noel,

The hole has always called for a dead straight tee shot, irrespective of the club chosen from the tee, combined with the golfers ability to hit their approach shot from a steep incline.

So, the dilema is:
Hit a driver as far and as close to the green as possible, so as to have the shortest club in to the green, or,

Lay back, counting on "shorter club accuracy" and risk the longer iron off of a steeper portion of the incline, for your approach.

I've always been partial to my driver, and felt that if I make a bogie five, I haven't lost anything to the field.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ahh..but Patrick...the rub with hitting driver is that bogey is anything but assured with OB so close on the right and a steep falloff on the left behind huge, mature trees.  

I'd love to see the variations in scoring on this hole in tournament play.  I'd bet it ranges from 3 to worse than 7.  

Incidentally, I just took at look at the pic that Matt mentioned from Dr. Quirin's "Golf Clubs of the MGA", which looks to be from recent vintage.  In the pic, the whole left side looks to be a thick, mature forest, narrowing the hole dramatically.  As weird as it sounds, it looks like it was easier before a LOT of trees were taken out on the left.  It seems that the trees would likely often prevent a ball from going all the way down the left hand slope, which is clearly a major concern with the way the hole plays now.  

Dr. Quirin also reports that in 1995, the hole had the highest scoring average in the entire MGA REGION!!

Even though it's not the GAP, I understand that there's a good course or two in the MGA!