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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2017, 10:50:16 AM »
Common sense getting more common-
finally


and no more 2 shot penalties for signing a card for a penalty you didn't know about


Rumor has it a USGA official heard Zach Johson hits it 10 yards farther than Jack did-study to follow
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dave Givnish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2017, 10:59:19 AM »
Now if only the PGA Tour would equip marshals with tasers to zap people yelling "get in the hole" on par 5 tee boxes...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 11:07:44 AM »
Now if only the PGA Tour would equip marshals with tasers to zap people yelling "get in the hole" on par 5 tee boxes...


plus 1000
Somehow Augusta is able to solve that problem
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2017, 11:25:59 AM »
Now if only the PGA Tour would equip marshals with tasers to zap people yelling "get in the hole" on par 5 tee boxes...


I’m okay with the occasional shout of “mashed potatoes!” on a tee box.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 03:34:12 PM »
Ugh. Hate just about everything about this.

Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and playing by them. The incentive to actually do this was already reduced from a DQ to a two-stroke penalty, and now that's gone as well. There's now no incentive to accurately record your score when you may or may not have incurred a penalty: just play dumb and if the guy watching the telecast got up to take a leak, you get away with it. Worst case? You are given the penalty you actually incurred.

Now, quite literally, 20 spectators can record a player with their smart phones breaching the rules, and the worst thing that can happen - if the player says (honestly or not) "I didn't know I had incurred that penalty" - but because they're spectators, their recordings are irrelevant. And thus you'll have a player known to have breached the rules who cannot even be assessed the penalty for the rules infraction, let alone any extra penalties (DQ, two strokes) so long as he "was unaware" that he had breached the rules.

Heaven forbid the guys and gals earning a good living at the game know the rules of the game they play.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 04:23:34 PM »
Not being a high level player, I have some questions?   

On the PGA tour, isn't there a referee or rules person with each group, or at least nearby?

Don't all the players "watch" each other?  (I know Seve did, and "the worlds most interesting man " does).   Are they colluding now?

Isnt the only way to get away with something to be what Erik just said, the rules guy watching on TV missed it?

If the answer to all this is, we really cant trust them and we have to babysit them with video, then aren't we in a real bad place?

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 04:43:30 PM »

If the answer to all this is, we really cant trust them and we have to babysit them with video, then aren't we in a real bad place?


...and have been for a long, long time... if the public is catching 6-12 "incidents" a year on camera (out of how many?) then god knows what the numbers were like in previous eras, without such incentive to not be caught in violation.


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 04:48:44 PM »
So....it means the $$ is so great that the penalties have not matched the crime, therefore the crime is worth the risk?   A stroke here and there, maybe you get third instead of second, etc.  Its wroth it to be a cheater.      Wouldn't the answer be for the PGA Tour to add fines to the penalities?   IE, you get two strokes or whatever, and $100,000 fine.    Hit them harder?

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2017, 04:49:33 PM »
Ugh. Hate just about everything about this.

Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and playing by them. The incentive to actually do this was already reduced from a DQ to a two-stroke penalty, and now that's gone as well. There's now no incentive to accurately record your score when you may or may not have incurred a penalty: just play dumb and if the guy watching the telecast got up to take a leak, you get away with it. Worst case? You are given the penalty you actually incurred.

Now, quite literally, 20 spectators can record a player with their smart phones breaching the rules, and the worst thing that can happen - if the player says (honestly or not) "I didn't know I had incurred that penalty" - but because they're spectators, their recordings are irrelevant. And thus you'll have a player known to have breached the rules who cannot even be assessed the penalty for the rules infraction, let alone any extra penalties (DQ, two strokes) so long as he "was unaware" that he had breached the rules.

Heaven forbid the guys and gals earning a good living at the game know the rules of the game they play.


Yes, but how many famous "call-in" incidents were from spectators at the event vs. home viewers?  Isn't it like 100% home viewers?


The real fun will be video captures of rules breaches coming out during/after a tournament.  The player in question will have his trophy and check with no penalties, but there will still be a shitstorm on the twitterz.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 04:49:41 PM »
Ugh. Hate just about everything about this.

Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and playing by them. The incentive to actually do this was already reduced from a DQ to a two-stroke penalty, and now that's gone as well. There's now no incentive to accurately record your score when you may or may not have incurred a penalty: just play dumb and if the guy watching the telecast got up to take a leak, you get away with it. Worst case? You are given the penalty you actually incurred.

Now, quite literally, 20 spectators can record a player with their smart phones breaching the rules, and the worst thing that can happen - if the player says (honestly or not) "I didn't know I had incurred that penalty" - but because they're spectators, their recordings are irrelevant. And thus you'll have a player known to have breached the rules who cannot even be assessed the penalty for the rules infraction, let alone any extra penalties (DQ, two strokes) so long as he "was unaware" that he had breached the rules.

Heaven forbid the guys and gals earning a good living at the game know the rules of the game they play.


I guess I have a higher regard for the pros.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 05:25:41 PM »
'bout time.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 05:40:52 PM »
You guys really hate great players. First you want to roll back the ball so they play like you and now you accuse them of cheating like you. Maybe they are, God forbid, better than you.


Everyone has a finite number of sins to spend in their lives, some just spend them better than others. We really don't want to live in a world where everyone gets caught. The next guy may be you.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2017, 05:43:18 PM »
According to what I read, the player would incur the penalty but the quirk is the rule with regard to signing an incorrect scorecard. 
The waiver of the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard would be by local rule so if it is not noted before the competition then the additional 2 strokes for signing an incorrect scorecard would still apply.  This seems really nuts to me.  So are the start of the competition it may be noted that they are playing the imbedded ball rule through the green but if nothing else is said then the incorrect scorecard penalty still applies - why?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 06:14:02 PM »
Ugh. Hate just about everything about this.

Players are responsible for knowing the rules, and playing by them. The incentive to actually do this was already reduced from a DQ to a two-stroke penalty, and now that's gone as well. There's now no incentive to accurately record your score when you may or may not have incurred a penalty: just play dumb and if the guy watching the telecast got up to take a leak, you get away with it. Worst case? You are given the penalty you actually incurred.

Now, quite literally, 20 spectators can record a player with their smart phones breaching the rules, and the worst thing that can happen - if the player says (honestly or not) "I didn't know I had incurred that penalty" - but because they're spectators, their recordings are irrelevant. And thus you'll have a player known to have breached the rules who cannot even be assessed the penalty for the rules infraction, let alone any extra penalties (DQ, two strokes) so long as he "was unaware" that he had breached the rules.

Heaven forbid the guys and gals earning a good living at the game know the rules of the game they play.


Eric,
Agreed 100% that the players are responsible for knowing the rules and for enforcing them, as well as protecting the field.


But I think this is a good move.
The call in stuff was nonsense, especially the day after stuff.


It's game of honor.



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2017, 06:41:48 PM »
Yes, a game of honour - and a game of honest mistakes too.
Baseball umpires have been known to miss a call now and again.
Golfers sometimes make mistakes, and rules officials might occasionally miss something too.
There's no point in arguing that they 'shouldn't' - because they do, and they will.
You can't legislate or demand perfection;  the call-in always seemed to me a misguided attempt to get 'a little closer' to said perfection -- misguided especially because such potential call-ins didn't apply to/impact on all the participants equally, but instead only to the leaders being televised.
Maybe a missed call is (at least a little) akin to the rub of the green, or to a bad bounce. Another way that golf is sometimes 'not fair'.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 06:46:26 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2017, 06:50:54 PM »
On the PGA tour, isn't there a referee or rules person with each group, or at least nearby?

There are two or three roaming the course. No, they're not always "nearby." They try to spread out, but they're nowhere near "with each group."


Don't all the players "watch" each other?  (I know Seve did, and "the worlds most interesting man " does).   Are they colluding now?

No. They mostly just let their opponent play on, unless they ask for help or are holding up play with a ruling.


Isnt the only way to get away with something to be what Erik just said, the rules guy watching on TV missed it?

This rule also eliminates the chance of a spectator who recorded a clear violation from reporting it and having it matter.


Yes, but how many famous "call-in" incidents were from spectators at the event vs. home viewers?  Isn't it like 100% home viewers?

The famous ones, sure. I've been at an event where a rules official quizzed spectators and pieced together what happened, and penalized a player. Spectators have often been used to indicate where a ball went into a hazard, whether balls on a green hit each other and whether one should be replaced, etc.


The real fun will be video captures of rules breaches coming out during/after a tournament.  The player in question will have his trophy and check with no penalties, but there will still be a shitstorm on the twitterz.

Yeah.

I doubt very much anyone wants to win a tournament if there's video of them breaching a rule, but because of HOW it was discovered, they weren't penalized?

I don't even know what I would do. Withdraw?

I guess I have a higher regard for the pros.


It's not about that.


Take the Lexi thing. She broke the rules. She should have known better. It was her fault. I wish she'd either not replaced the ball an inch away, or thought back to it and assessed herself the penalty. Instead she behaved like something happened TO her, when SHE was in fact the cause of it all. She broke the rules. She incurred a penalty, and wrote a lower score down for that hole than what she actually scored. She should have been thankful that it wasn't a straight out DQ as it was until recently.

It's not about pros actively trying to cheat. I don't think Lexi was. But suppose a player grounds his club and moves some rocks in a hazard (pre-2019). People notice it during the next round. He wins by one… because no penalty is applied, because the guy watching the TV sneezed or didn't pay attention, or somehow missed it?

Who wants that?

Agreed 100% that the players are responsible for knowing the rules and for enforcing them, as well as protecting the field. But I think this is a good move. The call in stuff was nonsense, especially the day after stuff. It's game of honor.

How does a person pointing out that a player breached the rules change the "it's a game of honor"? If players were truly honorable, wouldn't they have called the penalty on themselves already, and know the rules themselves?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2017, 08:12:54 PM »
On the PGA tour, isn't there a referee or rules person with each group, or at least nearby?

There are two or three roaming the course. No, they're not always "nearby." They try to spread out, but they're nowhere near "with each group."


Don't all the players "watch" each other?  (I know Seve did, and "the worlds most interesting man " does).   Are they colluding now?

No. They mostly just let their opponent play on, unless they ask for help or are holding up play with a ruling.


Isnt the only way to get away with something to be what Erik just said, the rules guy watching on TV missed it?

This rule also eliminates the chance of a spectator who recorded a clear violation from reporting it and having it matter.


Yes, but how many famous "call-in" incidents were from spectators at the event vs. home viewers?  Isn't it like 100% home viewers?

The famous ones, sure. I've been at an event where a rules official quizzed spectators and pieced together what happened, and penalized a player. Spectators have often been used to indicate where a ball went into a hazard, whether balls on a green hit each other and whether one should be replaced, etc.


The real fun will be video captures of rules breaches coming out during/after a tournament.  The player in question will have his trophy and check with no penalties, but there will still be a shitstorm on the twitterz.

Yeah.

I doubt very much anyone wants to win a tournament if there's video of them breaching a rule, but because of HOW it was discovered, they weren't penalized?

I don't even know what I would do. Withdraw?

I guess I have a higher regard for the pros.


It's not about that.


Take the Lexi thing. She broke the rules. She should have known better. It was her fault. I wish she'd either not replaced the ball an inch away, or thought back to it and assessed herself the penalty. Instead she behaved like something happened TO her, when SHE was in fact the cause of it all. She broke the rules. She incurred a penalty, and wrote a lower score down for that hole than what she actually scored. She should have been thankful that it wasn't a straight out DQ as it was until recently.

It's not about pros actively trying to cheat. I don't think Lexi was. But suppose a player grounds his club and moves some rocks in a hazard (pre-2019). People notice it during the next round. He wins by one… because no penalty is applied, because the guy watching the TV sneezed or didn't pay attention, or somehow missed it?

Who wants that?

Agreed 100% that the players are responsible for knowing the rules and for enforcing them, as well as protecting the field. But I think this is a good move. The call in stuff was nonsense, especially the day after stuff. It's game of honor.

How does a person pointing out that a player breached the rules change the "it's a game of honor"? If players were truly honorable, wouldn't they have called the penalty on themselves already, and know the rules themselves?


Game of honor.
How does one call a penalty, and therefore sign for it, when they didn't know they put the ball down in the wrong place?
She either did it inadvertantly......or she cheated-it wasn't a case of not knowing the rules.
The incorrect scorecard thing is just silly if a player unknowingly incurred a penalty (not because of ignorance of the rules but rather a situation like Lexi's)


More importantly Eric-Check your messages!



« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 08:14:37 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jack Carney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 08:57:55 PM »
Good Report!


Let the players play and the fans spectate. Let Honor return to the game.


If a player continues to play games with it send him home.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2017, 10:54:29 PM »
Game of honor.
You keep saying that, but the game is less like a game of honor than it was yesterday. Yesterday, players were more responsible for calling penalties on themselves. Today, they can get away with not doing it and suffer no more penalty than that which they originally incurred, and maybe they'll get away with it completely.

See the comments on Geoff's site. They are mostly damning and contrary to what's being posted here.

The incorrect scorecard thing is just silly if a player unknowingly incurred a penalty (not because of ignorance of the rules but rather a situation like Lexi's)
And yet… now all you have to do now is claim you didn't know! Penalty avoided. How convenient!

More importantly Erik-Check your messages!
I read them all days ago.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2017, 03:42:56 AM »
It is a step in the right direction.  Relying on tv spectators to police the game is a crap shoot.  Not all players get equal viewing time, therefore the rules were not equally applied to all contestants.  This is breaking a basic tenet of sporting rules.

Very pleased about no penalty for signing for an incorrect score after 18 holes for 72 hole events.  The tournament score is final after the 72nd hole and not until then.  Why should players be penalized for an incorrect score prior to the conclusion of 72 holes?  If a problem is discovered, rectify it. This isn't rocket science. Jeepers...leave 10 golfers in a room and they invariably discover the most complicated way to do things.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 04:06:03 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2017, 07:03:26 AM »
It is a step in the right direction.  Relying on tv spectators to police the game is a crap shoot.  Not all players get equal viewing time, therefore the rules were not equally applied to all contestants.  This is breaking a basic tenet of sporting rules.
Under ideal situations now, the TV referees will be seeing the same telecast. They're not committing to film everyone equally: people will still be watching the telecast and identifying possible infractions - they'll just be paid rules officials instead of relying on someone in the "audience."

So literally nothing changes. The "basic tenet of sporting rules" is still "broken" in your view.

Plus, regardless of who spots the error, I can't understand why anyone is okay with a known infraction going un-penalized. Players are often made rich playing a game that asks them to be honest and know and follow the rules. Why should they get away with an infraction? Shouldn't playing by the rules 99% of the time be better than playing by the rules 98% of the time?

Very pleased about no penalty for signing for an incorrect score after 18 holes for 72 hole events.  The tournament score is final after the 72nd hole and not until then.  Why should players be penalized for an incorrect score prior to the conclusion of 72 holes?
Because the competition is still ongoing, and players are responsible for putting down the correct score. It made sense to cap it at the end of the tournament - players go home and literally leave. But the tournament is still ongoing, in round 3, and an error in round 1 can still better reflect the outcome of the tournament.

What incentive is there to know and play by the rules and write the proper score down now?

Let's say a player commits a breach that he's unaware of. His caddie a few holes later says "hey, I think maybe you got two strokes back on #11." What's the incentive for the player to include those two strokes? He can include them or not. If he includes them, fine, cool. If he doesn't include them, then two things can happen: 1) He can get away with it, saving himself two strokes. 2) He can be penalized the actual penalty he incurred, later on, and simply declare "Oh, sorry, I didn't know. I don't know the rules very well."

What's the downside? He already incurred the penalty. There's now tremendous upside - and BTW the USGA and R&A have said that they won't look at video shot by a spectator on their smart phones, even if they show very clearly that the guy committed an infraction - in playing ignorant.

This was a DQ very very recently. Then they softened it to two strokes, and I thought "okay, fine." Now it's gone entirely? What's the incentive to writing the proper score down? Just assume you never incurred a penalty and write down that score. Worst case, you get the penalty you deserved. No need to know the rules.

Hell, just assume drops from water hazards are all free. Continue to fail to learn that it's a stroke penalty. Just write down a 4 instead of the 5 you got, and if nobody notices… awesome! (This wouldn't continue to pass on the PGA Tour, but junior golfers could abuse the hell out of this "oh, I didn't know" loophole).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2017, 07:18:11 AM »
Eric


It is illogical to penalize a player for an incorrect score before the 72 hole finish. I have no idea why we have this subdivision of scores prior to the 72 hole completion. Even the cut doesn't require signed 18 hole cards. Bottom line, creating fake opportunities to penalize someone is never going to score well with me. I fully expect carved in stone 18 hole cards for 72 hole events to become extinct. Eventually common sense will prevail.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2017, 08:05:29 AM »
Maybe we need more call-ins, rules disputes etc? TV golf has become so boring that the most interesting bit is sometimes the disputes (sic)! :)


To be less jokey, money is involved, often big money, and when money is involved, well money and honour are not usually the best of bedfellows, even though it would be splendid if they were. For every "you might as well praise a man for not robbing a bank" incident there is another side as well.
Bit like cricket batsman who claim to always 'walk'. Does the same player then not appeal if taking an iffy catch or if he's a bowler not appeal for a iffy wicket? Where is the line drawn....literally with cricket run-outs and stumpings!


I hope golf doesn't become like say motor racing, where the outcome of races can be/is sometimes overturned/decided later by legal action etc, but I have my fears.


atb

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: No more call-ins!
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2017, 08:24:28 AM »
A society where you gain fame by being a snitch is very dangerous. Or at least it never worked out well in the past. Snitchnado is tearing us apart.


I remember watching a guy get away with cheating at the Masters before he went on to win. Roll the tape boys and destroy some lives. It's all in good fun.

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