[Brian Finn]

Scotscraig is struggling as well…
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/5099272/fife-golf-course-scotscraig-vote-future/

That is a shame to hear.  I played Scotscraig in April and really enjoyed it.  The front 9 is particularly good.  I first heard about it when an architect I follow on Instagram (I believe it was Brian Schneider, but can't find the post) praised the interesting land and unique design features.  When I researched it here, it received praise (a few years back) from FBD and others.  While the value proposition is different for everyone, I felt the £50 I paid was very good value.  I can't view the linked article, but the members I played with expressed a desire to get more visitor play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The slightly strange juxtaposition is of this thread with the concurrent one about Elie and its members-and-guests-only summer policy. One suggests a very thriving club context, the other the polar opposite. Both can, of course, be true simultaneously...elsewhere in the UK reports of sporadic club and course closures continue, but then at the same time so do reports of thriving and/or reintroduced waiting lists. Many clubs remain in a (much) healthier position than they were pre-COVID but those professionally involved like Adrian et al will have a much better idea of how things are shaping up for the generality of mid-table suburban clubs where so much English (NB) golf takes place.

I think that we are sliding back toward pre covid levels. I think that PRO GOLF is not in a good place, it has got very boring to watch on TV, mainly the courses are dull and too much the same. The LIV situation does not help the viewer wants to see best v the best, for me I just watch majors. The courses WE tend to like are not dull but the big tournaments need the big infrastructure. I even think the Masters has got a bit pants, the par 3 is actually fun to watch except its not really a competition. Back in the 70s in the UK we had PRO CELEBRITY GOLF and that kick started a lot of people to golf, an hour long program with TV personalities, maybe we need something like that. From a UK point of view the weather has been horrible for the last four years off season so some people just dont get their value, not many want to play in the rain, not many want to carry (you all might here but its a minor opinion) their clubs. The game is slow. Aimpoint make it even slower. The handicapping system allows easier 'cheating' so some feel that they are disadvantaged.
The game won't go away but it will contract a bit and it will probably mean we need to lose one in eight golf courses over the next 5-10 years. That could in some areas where they are all good, you would lose a good one. Quality of the course may not even be the absolute decider which one goes. Closeness, where your mates play and price all play a big factor.
Going abroad on golf trips is at its most popular though, the modern golfer is much more nomadic they play around much more which once again hurts the membership model if they are in a monthly society group.
Scotland and the Scots like things a bit too cheap and they need to accept that $70 a month for unlimited golf will cause a bit carnage for some clubs. The min wage is the same North and South, yet golf gets cheaper in the UK as you go North, if you get too skinny with the sums well.........

[Richard Fisher]

Many thanks Adrian. V helpful and interesting.
From a UK perspective, always good to remind ourselves of the cycles that have impacted British golf clubs, and (not least) how many very famous names were seriously imperilled by declining memberships in the decade after WW2 when all of Sunningdale RStG etc were actively looking for recruits and courses like Addington New were disappearing altogether. You then had the 'never had it so good' consumer boom and in golf terms I tend to think that the period from the 1960s to 1980s was a period of strong consolidation, with the massive 'golf boom' spike in course and club construction of the 1990s followed by serious post-2010 retrenchment and then COVID...were the game to contract a bit it wouldn't be the end of the world, but my worry is that the contraction won't (as these two threads show) be evenly shared. And your point about what is a reasonable price for 52 weeks of golf per annum is an important one: I agree that c£20 a week has to be a minimum workable proposition, and anything less than that (without significant green fee income) will mean a very different experience n from the one club golfers now expect. But colleagues may well dispute this!

[Adam Lawrence]

Many thanks Adrian. V helpful and interesting.
From a UK perspective, always good to remind ourselves of the cycles that have impacted British golf clubs, and (not least) how many very famous names were seriously imperilled by declining memberships in the decade after WW2 when all of Sunningdale RStG etc were actively looking for recruits and courses like Addington New were disappearing altogether. You then had the 'never had it so good' consumer boom and in golf terms I tend to think that the period from the 1960s to 1980s was a period of strong consolidation, with the massive 'golf boom' spike in course and club construction of the 1990s followed by serious post-2010 retrenchment and then COVID...were the game to contract a bit it wouldn't be the end of the world, but my worry is that the contraction won't (as these two threads show) be evenly shared. And your point about what is a reasonable price for 52 weeks of golf per annum is an important one: I agree that c£20 a week has to be a minimum workable proposition, and anything less than that (without significant green fee income) will mean a very different experience n from the one club golfers now expect. But colleagues may well dispute this!

To be fair, Addington New wasn't lost due to any contraction in golf, but due to the need to provide homes for the post-war generation.

[Thomas Dai]

The circa £20/week, or £1,040 p/a, is an interesting figure. For say 500 members that would equate to approx £500,000 p/a. How many clubs could operate on that income and are they the type of club/course that a significant number of visitors are likely to want to visit?
Of course, in parts of the country supply/demand for membership varies. Some clubs don’t have say even near 500 members now whereas others at £1,040 p/a would have folks knocking down doors to join.
There’s also another point to consider. Golf in the UK is played by significantly more men than women and the average age of male golfers at private members clubs is circa 60/65 years of age. In other words folks who are likely retired or semi-retired and have plenty of spare time on their hands. What are these folks going to do with their time 365 days p/a if they don’t play golf pretty much irrespective of the price membership somewhere relatively close to home costs? Without meaning to be in any way sexist but to paraphrase what a members wife once said to me only slightly in jest “I’d be happy to pay thousands a year to get him out of the house and away from under my feet!”
Folks play golf for lots of different reasons.
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Agreed re Addington New, Adam, and of course ground conditions meant that ultimately they built notably fewer houses than originally envisaged...
David's point about the demographics of who actually plays golf, and the gender balance thereof, is a key one, of course. Interesting if there is any/much regional variation in that?

[Ben Sims]

There seems to be a massive financial disconnect between the clubs that can subsidize membership via visitors and the clubs that can’t. Clearly the vast majority of UK clubs don’t rely on visitor revenue to subsidize their membership. Problem is, they have to offer competitive subscriptions. Seems like a tough row to hoe.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,


Scotscraig is certainly worth a play.  Having said which, I haven't been there for years.

[Niall C]

The latest news articles suggest that Scotscraig members have voted for the committee to speak to "funding partners" and that they already have a preferred funding partner in mind. The same report suggests that Kingsbarns are interested in talking and are waiting to hear.


I find it surprising that a club like Scotscraig is in this situation. As one of the oldest clubs in the world they are obviously well established and with a course that is well regarded (did CBM not copy a hole at Scotscraig for one of his templates ? ). I've played there a few times the last of which was just after lockdown. It's a fairly good heathland type course with an older sizeable clubhouse (by UK standards) that needs a bit of upgrading but still more than acceptable. I'd be interested to learn whether the £200K shortfall last year was a one off and what caused it.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

[Brian Finn]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

Additionally, from an overseas visitor's perspective, Elie ticks a few more boxes than Scotscraig, most notably the seaside location and views throughout the round.  It is also a better golf course, by a decent margin, in my opinion. 

[Mark Pearce]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

Additionally, from an overseas visitor's perspective, Elie ticks a few more boxes than Scotscraig, most notably the seaside location and views throughout the round.  It is also a better golf course, by a decent margin, in my opinion.

Agreed on all of these points.

[Niall C]

Elie is like your average Scottish course in the same way that Scarlett Johansson is like your average female actress.


Niall

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