Golf in Scotland is sinking fast

[Brian_Ewen]

West Dunbartonshire Council are planning to close the only public golf course in the area. This would be detrimental to its residents as it offers a place where all residents no matter age, race, or gender can not only enjoy golf and the positive effects it can have for your physical well being, but is also a place that offers social gatherings to those who otherwise would not be able to do so.

Dalmuir Golf Course has been there for the residents of West Dunbartonshire for almost 100 years . bringing people from all over Scotland to play and taking this away would be a great loss to the community.

https://www.change.org/p/save-dalmuir-golf-course?recruiter=982079902

[David_Tepper]

Brian --

Has there been an comment from the Council about what they plan to do with the property?


DT

[Niall C]

David


I doubt they have much idea what they will do with it and I'm not sure it will be closed. What often seems to happen is that the department in charge send a report to Committee seeking authority to close the facility and that usually acts as a spur to Councillors to provide more money to keep the facility open.


That said, all Councils are reaching crisis point in terms of funding. Different Councils have different ways of dealing with the funding shortfall with a number of them seeking to lease out or sell sporting facilities to community groups to run them. When that doesn't work then a change of use is the last resort but in terms of golf courses and such like in urban areas the desire is to generally keep them as open spaces ie parks, allotments etc. That's popular with the anti-golf lobby.


Somewhere on this thread I spoke about my experiences with playing local munis during lock-down where I highlighted that part of the problem with Councils running at a deficit with golf courses being that they simply fail to collect the greenfees in a lot of instances. However it's not just municipals that are under threat. I was going to write an opinion piece for this site based on local golf courses. As part of that exercise I collated info on all courses within a 15 mile radius and counted 83 courses. That was about 5 years ago and I reckon the number is probably now nearer mid 70's with several of those having closed being private members clubs (3 closed pre COVID).


On the upside, 1 of those is slated to re-open as a 12 hole course.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Back when I was a Parks Manager (think a slightly more benevolent Ron Swanson), part of my remit was managing the staff at a Council-owned Course which, in common with many in Scotland, had an attached private Club.
The Club eventually took over the Clubhouse and Course but with the greenstaff still being paid by the Council. That changed a year or two back when the greenstaff became employees of the Club. Imagine my horror/surprise when I recently saw a job advert for practically ALL of the staff. I don’t know what happened, but it can’t have been good.
F.

[Brian_Ewen]

Golfers in Clydebank have welcomed the news that the area’s only public golf course has been saved from closure.

Last week West Dunbartonshire Council (WDC) met to set its budget for 2024/25.

Councillors were presented with more than 50 money savings options to plug an £8.3 million budget black hole, one of which was to close or downsize Dalmuir Municipal Golf Course. This proposal was rejected.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24182404.delight-scottish-public-golf-course-saved-closure/

[David_Tepper]

More bad news on coastal erosion:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-03-22/scotland-s-famous-golf-courses-are-sinking-into-the-sea?utm_campaign=news&utm_medium=bd&utm_source=applenews


And not just in Scotland:


https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gevv14nrwo

[Brian_Ewen]

Westhill Golf Club in Aberdeen with problems.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/6547502/westhill-golf-club-summit-over-urgent-cash-flow-issues/


Templeton wrote how unexpected machinery costs last winter put “immense pressure” on the club financially, with Westhill’s bank refusing to increase their £70,000 overdraft facility at the time.

The struggles have continued into this summer, despite what has been described as a “robust system of budgetary oversight”, a focus on reducing expenditure and what had been hopes for a “small” budgetary surplus this year.

“Declining membership numbers and a reduction in corporate membership” meant income from those sources “was £30,000 less than expected” against Westhill’s budget for 2024.

“Reduced income from Open competitions and visitor green fees” have also made “meeting the budget extremely difficult”, according to Templeton.

Templeton also revealed: “Over the past few years, we have relied on short term
soft loans from members and an overdraft facility from the bank to keep us going over the winter months.

“That is only pushing the problem further down the line. Loans always have to be repaid.”

[Wayne_Kozun]

Is the title of this thread still accurate? Is golf in Scotland struggling it, or has it benefitted from the post-Covid golf boom that we have seen in other places?  It seems that golf tourism is booming and many courses seem to have increased guest fees.  How many courses are struggling these days?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Is the title of this thread still accurate? Is golf in Scotland struggling it, or has it benefitted from the post-Covid golf boom that we have seen in other places?  It seems that golf tourism is booming and many courses seem to have increased guest fees.  How many courses are struggling these days?

Covid was good for golf probably increased golf by c30%. Sadly things have slipped since. We have had TWO very wet winters and the following has happened.
1. The golf course was shut quite a lot between October and April (say 30 days)
2. The golf course was open but the NO TROLLEYS were in force (say 100 days)
3. The golf course was open with push/pull trolleys but not electric ones (say 30 days)


SO to some 60 year olds and older that can't carry their clubs the course was CLOSED.


This manifests into the customer feeling he has not got his value and to some they cease to be a member.


A high percentage of golfers that cease to be a member enter the path of becoming a non golfer.


Golf tourism is a doing well but is a very different market and one that is only open to about 5% of UK golf clubs. Club like Westhill won't be claiming much GCA traffic (until Mr Arble visits and casts his view)

[Thomas Dai]

Club like Westhill won't be claiming much GCA traffic (until Mr Arble visits and casts his view)

Atb

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Adrian - Why do they ban trollies, even if the course is very wet?  Do trolleys do damage?  I would think that a 100kg golfer would do WAY more damage than a trolley. So if you let golfers walk you may as well allow trollies.  Electric carts or buggies I could see why you would ban them.

[Thomas Dai]

As to banning buggies, elect or pull/push trolleys etc there’s quite a bit of disability discrimination type legislation in the U.K. these days.


Curious especially in relation to winter buggy use as to the balance between on-course safety in poor ground conditions vrs disabled or somehow impaired folks claiming their being unjustly prevented from playing.


I’ve heard mixed messages in this respect ranging from safety first (ie buggy bans) to clubs must install buggy paths around the complete course (ie on every hole).


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

@Adrian - Why do they ban trollies, even if the course is very wet?  Do trolleys do damage?  I would think that a 100kg golfer would do WAY more damage than a trolley. So if you let golfers walk you may as well allow trollies.  Electric carts or buggies I could see why you would ban them.

Some trolleys encourage huge bags and there is no doubt they do damage, remember you have the 100kg golfer as well. Another problem is a carrier can walk in multiple places where the trolley pullers tend to use the same route to enter exit, tees/greens and that produces the mess. (Like Cattle around feeding troughs)

[Kalen Braley]

The battle of "haves vs have nots" is old as time, and golf is certainly no exception.

To answer the earlier question, I suspect the haves are doing better than ever, and would hope this is not the worst of times for the have nots. And how that adds up in the macro may be difficult to determine.  I'm guessing the sand based courses in general are dealing far better with the wet than the clay ones.  It would seem the thread title is a double entendre, in the literal sense as well...

[Thomas Dai]

The battle of "haves vs have nots" is old as time, and golf is certainly no exception.
To answer the earlier question, I suspect the haves are doing better than ever, and would hope this is not the worst of times for the have nots. And how that adds up in the macro may be difficult to determine.  I'm guessing the sand based courses in general are dealing far better with the wet than the clay ones.  It would seem the thread title is a double entendre, in the literal sense as well...

Drainage, drainage, drainage.
Atb

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/popular-scottish-golf-course-closes/


Hirsel Golf Club has confirmed its closure after filing for bankruptcy.

The club, in the historic Scottish Borders town of Coldstream, posted the news on its Facebook page on Wednesday.

“Following our AGM this evening, the Hirsel Golf Club is closed,” it read. “No bookings can now be taken.

“Anyone with future golf bookings will hear directly from the Club.”

According to former members of Hirsel, the club was forced into bankruptcy after increasing costs and declining membership.

[Niall C]

The headline refers to a popular course and then the body of the story refers to declining membership.


Anyone played Hirsel ?


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

The headline refers to a popular course and then the body of the story refers to declining membership.


Anyone played Hirsel ?


Niall

N,
We played a couple of rounds on it on a boys weekend many years ago. Decent, if unremarkable, parkland. There’s obviously much better options in the area - Goswick!
I’m finding it odd that we’re losing these older courses, but still building new ones. Different markets, I suppose…
F.

[Jeff Schley]

As to banning buggies, elect or pull/push trolleys etc there’s quite a bit of disability discrimination type legislation in the U.K. these days.


Curious especially in relation to winter buggy use as to the balance between on-course safety in poor ground conditions vrs disabled or somehow impaired folks claiming their being unjustly prevented from playing.


I’ve heard mixed messages in this respect ranging from safety first (ie buggy bans) to clubs must install buggy paths around the complete course (ie on every hole).


Atb

Thomas, while I certainly don't advocate any discrimination, conditions matter in sport/recreation. You can't go hiking safely in some conditions, you can't ski in some conditions, fish or boat in some conditions, golf is not immune to that. Especially, as you state it may mandate golf cart paths. Really hope that doesn't gain any footing in policy.

[Adam Lawrence]

There is _zero_ chance of more than one or two UK courses building continuous cart paths. Partly the golfers who take carts simply wouldn’t stand for being told they had to stay on the paths no matter where their balls were (the British are not very obedient), but mostly it would just be too expensive. The cost of an eighteen hole continuous cart path is significantly more than almost every British course would possibly spend on a complete course renovation.

[Niall C]

The headline refers to a popular course and then the body of the story refers to declining membership.


Anyone played Hirsel ?


Niall

N,
We played a couple of rounds on it on a boys weekend many years ago. Decent, if unremarkable, parkland. There’s obviously much better options in the area - Goswick!
I’m finding it odd that we’re losing these older courses, but still building new ones. Different markets, I suppose…
F.

Not so much a different market as more an upgrade. People are always looking for bigger and better which is why we're not all still driving Ford Model T's.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Some local chat that Kirkcaldy GC - commonly known as Balwearie - is in dire straits. I think it was OTM’s final layout?
Cheers,
F.


EDIT: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/scottish-golf-club-draws-up-survival-plan-amid-significant-challenges-4781223

[Adrian_Stiff]

There is _zero_ chance of more than one or two UK courses building continuous cart paths. Partly the golfers who take carts simply wouldn’t stand for being told they had to stay on the paths no matter where their balls were (the British are not very obedient), but mostly it would just be too expensive. The cost of an eighteen hole continuous cart path is significantly more than almost every British course would possibly spend on a complete course renovation.

Adam I think you can do it fairly cheap if you used Road Plainings.
We are just doing that at 3 holes so we have paths all the way round. I reckon 2000 tonnes of plainings at say £10 tonne, then its the man hours with a mini-excavator, 2 men could probably dig the top soil and haul away 200 linear metres a day, so 1 fairway every 2 days , 36 days work for 2.

[Adrian_Stiff]

As to banning buggies, elect or pull/push trolleys etc there’s quite a bit of disability discrimination type legislation in the U.K. these days.


Curious especially in relation to winter buggy use as to the balance between on-course safety in poor ground conditions vrs disabled or somehow impaired folks claiming their being unjustly prevented from playing.


I’ve heard mixed messages in this respect ranging from safety first (ie buggy bans) to clubs must install buggy paths around the complete course (ie on every hole).


Atb

Thomas, while I certainly don't advocate any discrimination, conditions matter in sport/recreation. You can't go hiking safely in some conditions, you can't ski in some conditions, fish or boat in some conditions, golf is not immune to that. Especially, as you state it may mandate golf cart paths. Really hope that doesn't gain any footing in policy.

British Law is the worst in the modern world and England Golf have supported that something like" if a golf course is open for play it must be open for ALL and that means if a disabled person wants a buggy then you must serve them or the course must be closed for ALL" there is a paragraph about 'reasonable etc' a word that the putrid lawyers leach on to finance their pockets with the eternal paper trail. A lot of UK golf courses will have to install paths.

[Tony_Muldoon]

"Golf in Scotland is sinking fast."
"The British are not very obediant."
"British Law is the worst in the world."




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M