Faster Greens = Slower Play

[Jim Sherma]

Fast green slows down pace of play. There is no doubt in my mind. Even though more long putts may be made due to the smoother surfaces the amount of grinding due to less tap ins as the ball rolls out is significant, even if you’re making them all. Also, Joe’s point of the impact on pitching and chipping is very real in adding difficulty and time.


An insight that I had earlier this year is that really fast greens kill the ground game. It becomes harder to have a ball consistently run on and stop as the greens get faster. The benefits of an aerial green with spin is very much amplified.

[MCirba]

That point about the ground game really is an excellent one, Jim.

[Jay Mickle]

An insight that I had earlier this year is that really fast greens kill the ground game. It becomes harder to have a ball consistently run on and stop as the greens get faster. The benefits of an aerial green with spin is very much amplified.

+1
Played at Roaring Gap in a hickory event a couple of years back, the day before the member/guest, and the greens were rolling +/-13. Running a ball up was like rolling a ball off of shag carpet onto a bowling alley. The variation in coefficients of friction made for a very difficult and longer than expected round. Of course the aerial game didn't fare any better as niblicks with no real grooves imparted little or no spin. A frustrating day for those seeking low scores but a great day to enjoy a wonderful course.

[jeffwarne]

An insight that I had earlier this year is that really fast greens kill the ground game. It becomes harder to have a ball consistently run on and stop as the greens get faster. The benefits of an aerial green with spin is very much amplified.

true-and we're going in the wrong direction in trying to make the surrounds catch up with the green speed rather than vice versa

[Garland Bayley]

and you end up grinding on second (or third) putts instead of tapping in. 

Reasonably certain the greater cause of slow play is a bunch of 18-handicap calibre players grinding over any shot.

Reasonably certain the greater cause of slow play is a bunch of low handicap calibre players grinding over any shot to preserve their low handicap.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Generally golfers take more putts the faster the greens are. You can ring fence certain genres so the better players would putt better at say 11.5 than an 8.0 but mainly that is because what someone is used too. A more average player less regular player is more likely to have a complete nightmare on fast ones.

I don't believe that to be accurate, and it's not based on the studies I've seen. Given a little time to acclimate, golfers of a wide range of ability levels putt better on faster greens. Shorter strokes, putts hold their lines more/better, etc.

Either way, greens adding or subtracting five or six minutes per round is not where we should be looking. Slow players are the cause of slow play, not greens that stimp at 11 instead of 10.

[Garland Bayley]

Generally golfers take more putts the faster the greens are. You can ring fence certain genres so the better players would putt better at say 11.5 than an 8.0 but mainly that is because what someone is used too. A more average player less regular player is more likely to have a complete nightmare on fast ones.

I don't believe that to be accurate, and it's not based on the studies I've seen. Given a little time to acclimate, golfers of a wide range of ability levels putt better on faster greens. Shorter strokes, putts hold their lines more/better, etc.

Either way, greens adding or subtracting five or six minutes per round is not where we should be looking. Slow players are the cause of slow play, not greens that stimp at 11 instead of 10.

Surprisingly, I agree with Eric on both points. The book Newton on the Tee would validate the first point. And, I have long supported the idea that slow play is a personal characteristic, and is best addressed with the individual.

[Jay Mickle]

. Slow players are the cause of slow play, not greens that stimp at 11 instead of 10.

+1

[A.G._Crockett]

For clarification:

1. In NO way do I believe or mean to imply that green speeds are anywhere near the top of the list of reasons for slow play.  I agree 100% with those of you that believe that individual players primarily determine pace of play, and that there are several other factors that are also much, much more significant than green speeds.

2. I interpreted the discussion to be about the question of whether or not extreme green speeds take longer to play, rather than where that ranks on the list of reasons for slow play.

3. Since most golfers don't fully putt out in most rounds, greens speeds don't matter in the pace of play for most golfers in most rounds.

4. I'm an outlier, I think; I play a lot of low-level competition, on a lot of different courses with greens at a lot of different speeds, both bent and bermuda.  Consequently, I putt out even in casual rounds unless ESC has reared it's ugly head.

4. All of that said, I think that extreme green speeds matter to pace of play primarily on the newer hybrid bermuda greens, simply because putts can get away from even good putters in a way that simply doesn't happen on bent grass.  You don't have to agree with that, of course.

So PLEASE don't quote me in a post in which you rant that green speeds are way down the list of pace of play sins, ok?  That isn't in question, and I don't disagree anyway. 

But if you can play a round on Champion Bermuda greens that are running 11 or 12 in which you putt everything out and score matters as fast as you play on greens that are running 9 or 10, you are different than anybody I've come across.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Whilst I don't think Fast greens is the main reason for slow play by any means. The time it takes on greens is in my opinion one area where a lot of time could be saved on a round and I am talking about 30-40 minutes.


Fast greens (or faster than normal) will add some time because the situation is abnormal.


Highly contoured greens will add some time because of the extra thought into reading a curler or straight un. Both will lead to more three putting which is very depressing for most golfers. Very few golfers find it fun to three putt.


The real waste time is the continued marking of the ball and the stripe alignment.


30-40 minutes of saved time is a big thing.....so new rule MARK IT ONCE on the green.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So PLEASE don't quote me in a post in which you rant that green speeds are way down the list of pace of play sins, ok?  That isn't in question, and I don't disagree anyway. 

I apologize if any of my posts came off that way. I was speaking generally, and only really ever saying that so that we can maintain perspective. I think almost everyone here agrees that this is well down on the list of things that slow down play.

30-40 minutes of saved time is a big thing.....so new rule MARK IT ONCE on the green.

As much as we might all like that, it's probably not going to happen. "Continuous putting" is very similar in terms of what actually happens.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do believe that we can all agree that firm and fast fairways lead to slow play more often than fast greens. Few people lose a ball on the green.

[MCirba]

I do believe that we can all agree that firm and fast fairways lead to slow play more often than fast greens. Few people lose a ball on the green.

You haven't seen my putting since trump was elected, John.

[Padraig Dooley]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

The study leaves a LOT more questions than it answers. It's really pretty poorly done, as far as "science" goes.

I agree that we need to stop finding external reasons for slow play. The biggest, most obvious root cause is… slow players!

I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

I read a study awhile ago that, given time to adjust (20-30 minutes or so of warmup time), players of all levels putted better on faster greens (to a point, we're not saying 14 stimp greens here). Faster greens are smoother and thus truer, and require smaller strokes less prone to making errors than bigger strokes.

The biggest reason behind slow play is not players but the amount of players on the course, a full course means slow play.

There is no doubt there's multiple reasons behind slow play and tackling any reason will lead to faster rounds. I also feel that blaming the player continuously is a cop out by golf clubs and courses in other words it's your fault so we don't need to do anything about it.

Reason's behind slow play

Number of people on the course - i.e starting times too close together
Player behaviour
Course set up - speed of greens, pin placements, height of rough etc
Length of course
Length of walks from greens to tee

Two things are fixed and can't be changed but the course has a big influence over three ie starting times, course set up and player behaviour

There is no harm in talking about any of the factors and when it comes to architecture you'd have to say that green speeds might be the most important one to talk about.

[Tim Martin]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

The study leaves a LOT more questions than it answers. It's really pretty poorly done, as far as "science" goes.

I agree that we need to stop finding external reasons for slow play. The biggest, most obvious root cause is… slow players!

I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

I read a study awhile ago that, given time to adjust (20-30 minutes or so of warmup time), players of all levels putted better on faster greens (to a point, we're not saying 14 stimp greens here). Faster greens are smoother and thus truer, and require smaller strokes less prone to making errors than bigger strokes.

The biggest reason behind slow play is not players but the amount of players on the course, a full course means slow play.

There is no doubt there's multiple reasons behind slow play and tackling any reason will lead to faster rounds. I also feel that blaming the player continuously is a cop out by golf clubs and courses in other words it's your fault so we don't need to do anything about it.

Reason's behind slow play

Number of people on the course - i.e starting times too close together
Player behaviour
Course set up - speed of greens, pin placements, height of rough etc
Length of course
Length of walks from greens to tee

Two things are fixed and can't be changed but the course has a big influence over three ie starting times, course set up and player behaviour

There is no harm in talking about any of the factors and when it comes to architecture you'd have to say that green speeds might be the most important one to talk about.

The course set up as it relates to tees and pin placements can really slow things down as colder temps are upon is. Add a winter wind and the ball not compressing on mishits and it plays quite a bit tougher even with ordinary pin placements. With all the weather forecasting available it would seem that with rain,wind,cold would come an easier setup just to keep everybody moving and engaged.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The biggest reason behind slow play is not players but the amount of players on the course, a full course means slow play.

I don't think that's accurate at all. If everyone plays in three hours, you play in three hours. If one group of slow players holds people up, everyone after that group is held up.

Number of people on the course - i.e starting times too close together

I've started a round 45 minutes after a slow group, caught them on the sixth hole, and taken almost four hours just to play the last 11 holes. We might be two of only seven foursomes on the course, and still my round takes > 4 hours.

I've conducted a college tournament - and they're not known for fast play - with 24 groups (including ~15 female players), and finished the round the last two years in four hours straight. Shotgun start, "full" course the entire four hours for every group. Four hours, full Rules of Golf, in a competitive setting, with all players walking.

[Padraig Dooley]

[quote author=Erik J. Barzeski link=topic=65256.msg1556559#msg1556559 date
I don't think that's accurate at all. If everyone plays in three hours, you play in three hours. If one group of slow players holds people up, everyone after that group is held up.




There’s an interview will Bill Yates on this site where he goes through the reasons for slow play. Number 1 is the amount of golfers on the course.


Even if it takes just 3 hours to play and everyone is normally able to play in 3 hours and full course means play will be slow even with no slow groups. Imagine a group needs to look for a ball this causes a delay, the delay is felt by everyone behind. Then another group loses a ball etc etc. Now imagine a player is waiting for a par 5 and holding up a group behind, the delay goes all the way through the field as with a full course there is no space to move into. Slow down how quickly golfers start and now there’s space to move into.


In your example of catching a group in front and being held on an empty course. That’s player behaviour. If your group had been called through then you would have finished quickly. This also can’t be done when the course is full.

[Garland Bayley]

My recollection of Bill Yates result was that course conditions slowed things down.

So if there are no conditions that cause ball searching then there is no backup due to that on a course full of quick players.

[Pete_Pittock]

[quote author=Erik J. Barzeski link=topic=65256.msg1556559#msg1556559 date
I don't think that's accurate at all. If everyone plays in three hours, you play in three hours. If one group of slow players holds people up, everyone after that group is held up.
There’s an interview will Bill Yates on this site where he goes through the reasons for slow play. Number 1 is the amount of golfers on the course.
Even if it takes just 3 hours to play and everyone is normally able to play in 3 hours and full course means play will be slow even with no slow groups. Imagine a group needs to look for a ball this causes a delay, the delay is felt by everyone behind. Then another group loses a ball etc etc. Now imagine a player is waiting for a par 5 and holding up a group behind, the delay goes all the way through the field as with a full course there is no space to move into. Slow down how quickly golfers start and now there’s space to move into.
In your example of catching a group in front and being held on an empty course. That’s player behaviour. If your group had been called through then you would have finished quickly. This also can’t be done when the course is full.

A number of years ago I played in a scramble on a par 71 course with at least 34 teams. It went pretty good until the B teams teed off. After a while I commented that"we were holding up ourselves. We were literally playing at the pace of the slowest golfer. It was at least a 6 hour round.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Even if it takes just 3 hours to play and everyone is normally able to play in 3 hours and full course means play will be slow even with no slow groups. Imagine a group needs to look for a ball this causes a delay, the delay is felt by everyone behind. Then another group loses a ball etc etc. Now imagine a player is waiting for a par 5 and holding up a group behind, the delay goes all the way through the field as with a full course there is no space to move into. Slow down how quickly golfers start and now there’s space to move into.

Fast players would make up the space/time again, and the ripple effect would be minimized. I've seen it from the tournament I mentioned: we had a player go back to the tee (from the green on a par five, no less). Three groups back they barely noticed anything, the offending player's group was back in position a hole later.

I think slow players are the cause of slow play, and one comment from an interview here on this site isn't really enough evidence to sway me from that.

[Padraig Dooley]

Fast players would make up the space/time again, and the ripple effect would be minimized. I've seen it from the tournament I mentioned: we had a player go back to the tee (from the green on a par five, no less). Three groups back they barely noticed anything, the offending player's group was back in position a hole later.

I think slow players are the cause of slow play, and one comment from an interview here on this site isn't really enough evidence to sway me from that.

What evidence would sway you?

[Thomas Dai]

Let’s see how things go with the timing factors to be used at next years Austrian (?) Open on the European Tour.
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What evidence would sway you?

What evidence has been offered? One guy's experience? You said it was an interview, so if he had a study or two to back up his statements, I'm not aware of that. I took it as a veteran's experience.

Meanwhile, there are studies that show that an accident on a freeway can cause ripple effects that slow down traffic eight hours after the scene has been cleared. Fast players, even if they encounter a delay, can make up time, as can the fast players behind them.

IMO slow players are the single biggest cause of slow play, so any evidence would have to show me differently. It's exacerbated when there are no gaps - no doubt about that - but a full golf course can still be played quickly.

Maybe that's what lead to the gentleman you mentioned to make that statement. Nobody really "notices" a group of slow players on an empty course with plenty of gaps. They don't hold people up if there aren't people behind them, and when they do catch up to them on whatever hole, there's room to let them play through. But on a full course, there's no room, so every group behind the slow group has to play slowly.

Do you honestly believe 9-minute tee times instead of 11-minute tee times is a bigger cause of slow play than slow players - players who simply don't know how to get round the golf course efficiently and think they're entitled to take as long as they want, often from tees longer they should be playing?

[Adrian_Stiff]

As soon as people play in competitions the time taken is 30 minutes longer than a standard round. More care on shots, a lot of which is on the greens is the biggest contributor.


The time that is taken on a golf course is dictated by what is in front of you, if the first group plays in 5 hours, everyone will play in 5 hours if all the tee times are taken.


You won't significantly get people around faster with 10 minute tee times over 8 minute ones. Groups will back into others in a heartbeat if some group plays slow.


Back in the 1.62 days, we never had planners, fairway markers, lasers, maps of the green, lines on the ball, pre shot thought routines, focusing on the zone. We walked the same speed between shots, walked the same course, scored the same but probably in 1 hour less time, some people can still play 18 holes as a 3 ball in a competition in 210 minutes. You can't do it if the group in front take 270 minutes.

[Padraig Dooley]

What evidence would sway you?

What evidence has been offered? One guy's experience? You said it was an interview, so if he had a study or two to back up his statements, I'm not aware of that. I took it as a veteran's experience.

Meanwhile, there are studies that show that an accident on a freeway can cause ripple effects that slow down traffic eight hours after the scene has been cleared. Fast players, even if they encounter a delay, can make up time, as can the fast players behind them.

IMO slow players are the single biggest cause of slow play, so any evidence would have to show me differently. It's exacerbated when there are no gaps - no doubt about that - but a full golf course can still be played quickly.

Maybe that's what lead to the gentleman you mentioned to make that statement. Nobody really "notices" a group of slow players on an empty course with plenty of gaps. They don't hold people up if there aren't people behind them, and when they do catch up to them on whatever hole, there's room to let them play through. But on a full course, there's no room, so every group behind the slow group has to play slowly.

Do you honestly believe 9-minute tee times instead of 11-minute tee times is a bigger cause of slow play than slow players - players who simply don't know how to get round the golf course efficiently and think they're entitled to take as long as they want, often from tees longer they should be playing?

Why didn't you look at the interview? He's one of the if not the foremost expert on pace of play in golf. He gives examples.

The freeway hold ups are a good analogy but golfers can't accelerate to 70 mph after a hold up so the amount of time that can be made up after delays on holes is limited by how quickly golfers walk, they're not going to walk twice as fast.

Yes, 11 minute tee times will lead to quicker rounds over 9 minute tee times. And here's a couple of examples why from two local courses, one which is now closed, started with a shortish par 4 followed by a long par 3, if players went off the first tee too quickly they would immediately be waiting on the second tee and on busy days there would be 3 or 4 groups waiting on the second tee. Another local club has a medium length par 4 to start followed by a short par 5, again if players go off the first tee too early and with players waiting for the second in two there is now a blockage straight away, longer intervals off the first eliminates both these problems.

One slow play issue which is rarely addressed is golfer's perceptions of slow, a round which takes a long time will not be perceived to be slow as the groups might never be waiting and a round which can take a shorter time can be perceived as very slow due to numerous waits.

If slow play was just caused by one factor it would be much easier to solve but there is a number of factors and if a club/course is not aware of all the factors a proper solution will not be achieved. When it comes to player behaviour, nobody will ever admit they're a slow player and clubs/courses are unwilling/unknowledgeable in how to deal with them. Most clubs/courses are also completely unaware of the affect starting times has on the pace of play too.