Faster Greens = Slower Play

[John Kavanaugh]

Soft fairways also speed up play. Every time you allow a ball to roll you introduce the unexpected. This leads to confusion and slow play.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

The study leaves a LOT more questions than it answers. It's really pretty poorly done, as far as "science" goes.

I agree that we need to stop finding external reasons for slow play. The biggest, most obvious root cause is… slow players!

I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

I read a study awhile ago that, given time to adjust (20-30 minutes or so of warmup time), players of all levels putted better on faster greens (to a point, we're not saying 14 stimp greens here). Faster greens are smoother and thus truer, and require smaller strokes less prone to making errors than bigger strokes.

[MCirba]

Caning is the only solution to ending slow play.  Cirba and I would be happy to administer a study on it.

I am already on the record favoring the death penalty for anyone playing a round in over 4 hours.  Caning to me seems to be a very halfway, overly lenient measure.

[JESII]

The great thing about golf in the Philadelphia area is that the courses benefit from a wide range of weather conditions. Frequently, green speeds follow something close to this cyclical nature...


With astute course set up, even a fairly mundane course can deliver a ton of variety through the year. All as a byproduct of variable green speeds.

[MClutterbuck]

Our club recently celebrated its 10th anniversary. In this time, not once have I received a complaint for greens being too fast, only compliments. And they get really fast at times. I receive dozens of complaints when they are slower. I think just the complaining makes pace slower...

[JESII]

To that point; if given the option to select “fast” or “slow” when calling to make a tee time...what would be the split?

[John Connolly]

Soft fairways also speed up play. Every time you allow a ball to roll you introduce the unexpected. This leads to confusion and slow play.

+1
I don't know if you were trying to be funny but this sure cracked me up.

[MClutterbuck]

To that point; if given the option to select “fast” or “slow” when calling to make a tee time...what would be the split?

10/0 in favour of fast, provided the superintendent understands fast is a relative term that has to consider slope.

[MCirba]

Can we just speed things to their logical conclusion by all agreeing to go to perfectly level greased linoleum putting greens?   

[Kalen Braley]

As a high capper myself, I think Kyle is right on point in this thread.


In my experience, When you miss that first putt for par (because we normally don't get the GIR), and then the second one for bogey misses...at that point you don't really give a crap anymore and just hurry up on the 3rd putt...and then quickly pick up if that don't go in.


Blaming putting for the scourge of slow play is like thinking your wife divorced you for leaving the toilet seat up.  An annoyance for sure, but pretty sure its not the reason she kicked you to the curb. 

[A.G._Crockett]

As a high capper myself, I think Kyle is right on point in this thread.


In my experience, When you miss that first putt for par (because we normally don't get the GIR), and then the second one for bogey misses...at that point you don't really give a crap anymore and just hurry up on the 3rd putt...and then quickly pick up if that don't go in.


Blaming putting for the scourge of slow play is like thinking your wife divorced you for leaving the toilet seat up.  An annoyance for sure, but pretty sure its not the reason she kicked you to the curb. 

Kalen,
But the question at hand is NOT whether fast greens is THE culprit or not, or even the biggest of several culprits; it's whether fast greens contribute. 

As with your hypothetical (I hope) wife, the toilet seat wasn't THE cause, or even in the top ten, but it didn't help, did it?

[A.G._Crockett]

Can we just speed things to their logical conclusion by all agreeing to go to perfectly level greased linoleum putting greens?

Mike,
I played two tournaments this summer, one on Bermuda and one on bent, during which I thought to myself, "I really have to get home and refinish my hardwood floors; they're much too bumpy and MUCH too slow!" 

Both of those tournaments were 5 hour rounds with a field of ONLY good golfers who play lots of competitive golf.

[Kalen Braley]

As a high capper myself, I think Kyle is right on point in this thread.


In my experience, When you miss that first putt for par (because we normally don't get the GIR), and then the second one for bogey misses...at that point you don't really give a crap anymore and just hurry up on the 3rd putt...and then quickly pick up if that don't go in.


Blaming putting for the scourge of slow play is like thinking your wife divorced you for leaving the toilet seat up.  An annoyance for sure, but pretty sure its not the reason she kicked you to the curb. 

Kalen,
But the question at hand is NOT whether fast greens is THE culprit or not, or even the biggest of several culprits; it's whether fast greens contribute. 

As with your hypothetical (I hope) wife, the toilet seat wasn't THE cause, or even in the top ten, but it didn't help, did it?

AG,


I will not doubt its a mitigating factor, but i think the point Kyle makes is there are so many other more important ones, it seems a bit silly to address it as one of the first action items. To give another analogy, its like saying your going to buy and renovate an old house and the first thing on your list is buying a welcome mat for the front porch.  Its so far down the list, its borderline absurd.


P.S.  Lord knows my wife has plenty of valid reasons to leave me if she so chooses, but after 24 years she says she's gonna stick with me...for now!!     And its been years since she's mentioned something as trivial as the toilet seat.

[Jay Mickle]

The late Peggy Kirk Bell, Grand Dame of Pine Needles bemoaning all of grinding over putts said that of the players that she saw come through there in more than 50 years, even they knew the line not 5 in a hundred golfers could hit it on the line. Her point well taken was that it was more about speed for the average golfer and depending on distance one should be looking to get the ball inside a circle the size of a trashcan lid, from closer in inside a platter, and up close the hole.
Golfer's egos substitute coincidence for causality. Making a 20' put does not mean the the 3 minutes taken to line it up made it more likely that it holed out.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jay - with the buddy up thread near the top of the page, I thought it a good time to say that I hope to make it to NC one day, and that I look forward to the chance to tee it up with you at Mid Pines, Pine Needles and Dormie.
I will recognize you by your golf bag; and you will be able to recognize me as the guy on the range and/or putting green confusing coincidence with causality! 

[Sean_A]

So, generally speaking greens running at 10 take more time play than greens running at 9?  6 seconds they say....that extra 9 minutes per 4 ball over 18 holes can easily be made up somewhere else.  To me the bottom line is you do not attack fast greens because they slow play down.  You attack the concept because of what it can mean once slopes head toward 4% and up.  Do we want to reduce slope to accomodate speed and is speed of greens a reasonably sustainable concept for most clubs in the current environment?  I am long on record as saying 9-10 is about the right pace for interesting greens...wild greens need to run slower.  By far the more important aspects are to get the greens as firm as reasonable and running true.  Speed should simply be a function green condition and slope. 


Ciao

[Joe Bausch]

I've wondered how much faster greens affect pitching and chipping.  My gut feeling is plenty, with your average player able to get the ball closer to the pin with slower greens.

[jeffwarne]

Some of the fault for slow play with guests is the caddies who think they need to read every put. 


Slow play itself is more related to temperament and attitude than to handicap.


And in the "you gotta hear it to believe it"...one of the younger better players (a big cause of slow play) at my club has suggested that those that play the back tees "deserve" extra time on the course and should not be subjected to 4:00 mandate.

yikes....


IMHO Golf got itself in a very bad place with its insistence on "growing the game"
which really means get as many players possible to pay and buy stuff--not exactly growing the "game"


Desperation generally leads to poor choices-and sadly at many places survival dictates a buyers market -translation:knuckleheads are tolerated

[BCowan]

yikes....


IMHO Golf got itself in a very bad place with its insistence on "growing the game"
which really means get as many players possible to pay and buy stuff--not exactly growing the "game"


Desperation generally leads to poor choices-and sadly at many places survival dictates a buyers market -translation:knuckleheads are tolerated

Agree completely. 

[MCirba]

We really do like to argue here, don't we? 

I think the point is that all other things being equal, greens where the ball can easily get away from you leads to more putts and more time.   As Joe B pointed out, that's just not putting but chipping and pitching and bunker shots, as well.   

One might argue that the same effect may occur on highly undulating greens that are slower simply because of the degree of challenge/break, etc., but at least that's fun.

I'm not sure watching a barely tapped putt continue to slide 2, 3, 6 feet past is really all that enjoyable.

[JMEvensky]

I've wondered how much faster greens affect pitching and chipping.  My gut feeling is plenty, with your average player able to get the ball closer to the pin with slower greens.

IMO,as much, if not more, than putting.

[Tim Martin]

I've wondered how much faster greens affect pitching and chipping.  My gut feeling is plenty, with your average player able to get the ball closer to the pin with slower greens.

IMO,as much, if not more, than putting.

I think this is why you see putting and/or hybrids becoming more prevelant where the runoffs and surrounds are closely mowed. This is seemingly true at all skill levels as I see more proficient players using it as a default when they can keep it on the ground. There are those that won't surrender the wedge but I believe there would be lower scores and more smiles at the end of the day with this method.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Faster greens do equal more putts so obviously slow the game. Equally contoured greens are more difficult than flat ones so obviously slow the game.


The more contour involved in the green the slower play will be.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Faster greens do equal more putts so obviously slow the game. Equally contoured greens are more difficult than flat ones so obviously slow the game.

That's not necessarily accurate.

And I don't mean on a case by case basis, I mean generally. I've seen a few studies that say that players putt better on faster greens.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Faster greens do equal more putts so obviously slow the game. Equally contoured greens are more difficult than flat ones so obviously slow the game.

That's not necessarily accurate.

And I don't mean on a case by case basis, I mean generally. I've seen a few studies that say that players putt better on faster greens.

Generally golfers take more putts the faster the greens are. You can ring fence certain genres so the better players would putt better at say 11.5 than an 8.0 but mainly that is because what someone is used too. A more average player less regular player is more likely to have a complete nightmare on fast ones.