Faster Greens = Slower Play

[MCirba]

It also means flatter greens and less fun and less interesting greens.


http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2017/11/15/initial-findings-confirm-faster-greens-mean-slower-play.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[Tim Martin]

Many privates that lack internal contouring ramp up the speeds in an effort to compensate for same. With sloping greens come downhill putts and herein lies the problem.

[A.G._Crockett]

There is no question about this, and it's especially true, at least IMO, on the bermuda hybrids where lag putting is MUCH more difficult when the greens are fast.  The grain on those greens tends to take anything that is downhill or sidehill significantly farther away from the hole than on bent grass, and you end up grinding on second (or third) putts instead of tapping in. 

It just takes a LONG time to play that way, and it isn't much fun, really.  Just kind of wears you down, whether you putt well or not.

[Kyle Harris]

and you end up grinding on second (or third) putts instead of tapping in. 

Reasonably certain the greater cause of slow play is a bunch of 18-handicap calibre players grinding over any shot.

[Peter Pallotta]

and you end up grinding on second (or third) putts instead of tapping in. 

Reasonably certain the greater cause of slow play is a bunch of 18-handicap calibre players grinding over any shot.

Actually, it’s the 12s who think they’re 8s who dream of being 4s who cause most of the problems.
Not many 18s I know or ever played with grind over any shot, let alone putts for bogey or double. They’re well aware of their handicaps and don’t take themselves or the game/score too seriously — and they know that right behind them there is a group of 12s who think they’re 8s dreaming of being 4s shooting them the evil eye.

[Rick Lane]

Yes it’s the 12s, I agree.   Is at my place anyway.   Some of the scratch guys too.  But they take less shots overall. 


I study this behavior a lot at our course as we are fairly militant about pace, given the 22000 rounds we get in a season.  Mostly, it’s people just not caring.   They tell a joke on the tee box.  They aren’t ready when it’s their turn. Heck, they even wait for their turn!  And plumb bobbing, and all that.   Just hit the putt man, you play here all the time!

[John Kavanaugh]

Everything that makes the game more fun for you slows down the game for others.

[A.G._Crockett]

You guys can think what you want about who is or is not grinding over a second or third putt.  But I can tell you to a certainty that ANY index who is playing in a points or skins game, or ANY golfer that is playing in a tournament under the Rules, has to putt out.  And that becomes MUCH harder when the green speeds get much above 10.

We get so elitist and "holier than thou" on this site about pace of play and what the differences are between us and the great unwashed out there, especially the imagined high handicappers.  And most of it is crap most of the time.  A high index guy is picking up MORE often than the low index because he crashes into ESC more often.  There is NO link between fast golf and either bad OR good golf, and we'd do well to remember that.  If we could all climb down off our pedestals and high horses for a moment and quit pointing fingers at other golfers, we'd do better in the discussion of the issue at hand.

There IS, however, a link between having to play under the Rules and slow play, and there is no way around that fact.  And that fact of life and golf only gets more true at high green speeds.  If you are playing under the Rules and you have to make a three footer for money and/or your place in a competition, that's a way different deal than in casual play, and a way different deal when the greens are fast vs moderate or slow.

If you don't want or need to putt out, have at it.  But you don't foster rational discussion by blaming slow play on bad golfers in a discussion of the impact of high green speeds on pace of play.

[John Kavanaugh]

You can't fake making a putt matter.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have studied greens in this regard over the years.  From my own limited samples (and mostly from my public course designs where cup areas are under 2.25%) 9.5-10 is comfortable for me and all I play with, 11+ is uncomfortable and causes more misses. 


Did a master plan for a private club last year, proud of their 13 green speeds every day.  They reported five or six greens were scary.  I used the old Masters pin location set up method of measuring % of slope both ways at select hole locations, and only placing pins under 5.5 combined.  (they prefer 5.0 combined on the front half of the green)


Damn if every tough hole location was at 5.6 or higher, so the system is right on the nose, apparently, at least for country club golfers feeling comfortable on fast greens.  BTW, if you use your high school geometry, 5.5 combined slope translates closer to 4% actual slope max) and 3% is the max typically recommended by the USGA.


Of course, borderline scary still translates into more putts, IHMO.  Really, if green speeds keep going up, I presume the "casual rules" of golf will emulate putt-putt and require a maximum of three putts before picking up.  It's generally what happens anyway in the higher handicap groups, no?

[A.G._Crockett]

I have studied greens in this regard over the years.  From my own limited samples (and mostly from my public course designs where cup areas are under 2.25%) 9.5-10 is comfortable for me and all I play with, 11+ is uncomfortable and causes more misses. 


Did a master plan for a private club last year, proud of their 13 green speeds every day.  They reported five or six greens were scary.  I used the old Masters pin location set up method of measuring % of slope both ways at select hole locations, and only placing pins under 5.5 combined.  (they prefer 5.0 combined on the front half of the green)


Damn if every tough hole location was at 5.6 or higher, so the system is right on the nose, apparently, at least for country club golfers feeling comfortable on fast greens.  BTW, if you use your high school geometry, 5.5 combined slope translates closer to 4% actual slope max) and 3% is the max typically recommended by the USGA.


Of course, borderline scary still translates into more putts, IHMO.  Really, if green speeds keep going up, I presume the "casual rules" of golf will emulate putt-putt and require a maximum of three putts before picking up.  It's generally what happens anyway in the higher handicap groups, no?

Jeff,
I agree with you 100% about 10 being sort of a break point for green speeds and pace of play.  I used to think that the problems at 11+ cropped up because most players don't get the opportunity to play at those speeds often enough, but I don't believe that so much anymore.  Rather, I think that putting at those speeds just takes a long time because second (and third putts) are longer, and that means harder.  There's a "critical mass" to this, I think, and 11+ seems to me to it, even for skilled players.

And I'd add this again; there is a big difference, IMO, between 11+ on Champion bermuda vs. 11+ on bent grass because the grain issue becomes significant on bermuda.  Putts can really get away down-grain in a way that just doesn't happen on bent, and play gets REALLY slow.  We're seeing more and more courses with fast bermuda greens, and slower play is an inevitable result. 

In any case, though, I think blaming golfers for putting out instead of picking up, or thinking that the problem with green speeds is somehow ability-based, just completely misses the point.  Really fast greens make putting harder for ALL golfers, and putting is always going to be the slowest part of the game anyway.

[John Kavanaugh]

AG,


Have you and your friends ever given up on a course because they kept their greens too fast?

[Kyle Harris]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

"Study confirms that not caring about score speeds up play."
"Study confirms that conceding all putts within 5 feet during a Match speeds up play."

Duh.

It's about good pace of play habits vs. bad pace of play habits. The more one blames things outside the player's control the more we codify behavior that doesn't help. Everything else is a canard.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,


Have you and your friends ever given up on a course because they kept their greens too fast?

John,
No, not at all, though there have been one of two that I've played during a tournament round and was glad I wasn't playing every day as a home course.  And there have been others, like Pinehurst #2 that, while I was playing it, wondered how in the heck the pros play it at the green speeds they experience.

[A.G._Crockett]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

"Study confirms that not caring about score speeds up play."
"Study confirms that conceded all putts within 5 feet during a Match speeds up play."

Duh.

It's about good pace of play habits vs. bad pace of play habits. The more one blames things outside the player's control the more we codify behavior that doesn't help. Everything else is a canard.

Kyle,
I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

And please don't respond to this by telling me about hypothetical high handicappers that plumb bob 3 footers for triple bogey.  That's not what we're talking about at all.

[Kyle Harris]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

"Study confirms that not caring about score speeds up play."
"Study confirms that conceded all putts within 5 feet during a Match speeds up play."

Duh.

It's about good pace of play habits vs. bad pace of play habits. The more one blames things outside the player's control the more we codify behavior that doesn't help. Everything else is a canard.

Kyle,
I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

And please don't respond to this by telling me about hypothetical high handicappers that plumb bob 3 footers for triple bogey.  That's not what we're talking about at all.

Is that same group three putting doing any of the following to help?

Parking carts in the correct place to get to the next shot?
Taking multiple clubs for their shot?
Prepared to play when it's their turn regardless of ready-golf or honor?
Stopping for lunch at the turn? Bev Cart trips?
Hitting multiple balls off any tee?

Those are far more critical behaviors that I have yet to see addressed in any significant way on a golf course in terms of speeding play along. I've three-putted many nightmarishly fast greens, yet still don't seem to have a problem getting around in 3 hours.

The overall message with statements like this here is that it is anything but golfers who are responsible for their pace of play, which is nonsense.

[John Kavanaugh]

The easiest way to speed up play at private clubs is to not allow unaccompanied guests. The second easiest is to not allow guests at all.

[A.G._Crockett]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

"Study confirms that not caring about score speeds up play."
"Study confirms that conceded all putts within 5 feet during a Match speeds up play."

Duh.

It's about good pace of play habits vs. bad pace of play habits. The more one blames things outside the player's control the more we codify behavior that doesn't help. Everything else is a canard.

Kyle,
I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

And please don't respond to this by telling me about hypothetical high handicappers that plumb bob 3 footers for triple bogey.  That's not what we're talking about at all.

Is that same group three putting doing any of the following to help?

Parking carts in the correct place to get to the next shot?
Taking multiple clubs for their shot?
Prepared to play when it's their turn regardless of ready-golf or honor?
Stopping for lunch at the turn? Bev Cart trips?
Hitting multiple balls off any tee?

Those are far more critical behaviors that I have yet to see addressed in any significant way on a golf course in terms of speeding play along. I've three-putted many nightmarishly fast greens, yet still don't seem to have a problem getting around in 3 hours.

The overall message with statements like this here is that it is anything but golfers who are responsible for their pace of play, which is nonsense.

Kyle,
You want to talk about golfers in a discussion of green speeds, but I must warn you; you are in danger of tearing your rotator cuff from patting yourself on the back about how fast you can play golf relative to others!

The issue at hand is not whether or not there are slow golfers and fast golfers, or whether not lots of things can and should be done to speed pace of play.  We all know those things, and god knows there is no shortage of topics on GCA.com where we call all discuss slow golfers and how much faster WE are than the norm.

This discussion is about how the speed of greens might impact the pace of play REGARDLESS of the relative speed of particular golfers.  I find that interesting and compelling; you obviously don't.

[Kyle Harris]

The problem here is that it is BAD SCIENCE. The results are not reproducible and all the various variables are not controlled. I can find a study to confirm anything I want in regard to what does or does not speed up play.

"Study confirms that not caring about score speeds up play."
"Study confirms that conceded all putts within 5 feet during a Match speeds up play."

Duh.

It's about good pace of play habits vs. bad pace of play habits. The more one blames things outside the player's control the more we codify behavior that doesn't help. Everything else is a canard.

Kyle,
I don't think I need a study to tell me that players with bad habits play slower.   But I also don't think I need a study to tell me that more putts equals more time, and that really fast greens equals more putts.  Three putts take longer than two putts, regardless of how fast or slow a player's routine is.

And please don't respond to this by telling me about hypothetical high handicappers that plumb bob 3 footers for triple bogey.  That's not what we're talking about at all.

Is that same group three putting doing any of the following to help?

Parking carts in the correct place to get to the next shot?
Taking multiple clubs for their shot?
Prepared to play when it's their turn regardless of ready-golf or honor?
Stopping for lunch at the turn? Bev Cart trips?
Hitting multiple balls off any tee?

Those are far more critical behaviors that I have yet to see addressed in any significant way on a golf course in terms of speeding play along. I've three-putted many nightmarishly fast greens, yet still don't seem to have a problem getting around in 3 hours.

The overall message with statements like this here is that it is anything but golfers who are responsible for their pace of play, which is nonsense.

Kyle,
You want to talk about golfers in a discussion of green speeds, but I must warn you; you are in danger of tearing your rotator cuff from patting yourself on the back about how fast you can play golf relative to others!

The issue at hand is not whether or not there are slow golfers and fast golfers, or whether not lots of things can and should be done to speed pace of play.  We all know those things, and god knows there is no shortage of topics on GCA.com where we call all discuss slow golfers and how much faster WE are than the norm.

This discussion is about how the speed of greens might impact the pace of play REGARDLESS of the relative speed of particular golfers.  I find that interesting and compelling; you obviously don't.

I find it self-apparent.

However, the tone and context of the presentment, especially on the part of the media outlet referencing the study is taking the step to suggest that this is a critical and necessary step to take in order to help speed pace of play. The published study itself even mentions that this was not as big of an impact as hypothesized while Geoff goes on to downplay that aspect.

I disagree there.

[BCowan]

Caning is the only solution to ending slow play.  Cirba and I would be happy to administer a study on it. 

[Peter Pallotta]

I wish Shack had linked the Kyle-AG discussion instead; so much preaching to the converted is leading to the Great Apostasy — even among the devout!
In fact, I think the only reason Mike posted Shack’s link was as a warning shot to Merion! 

[Joe Bausch]

Caning is the only solution to ending slow play.  Cirba and I would be happy to administer a study on it.

Mike Cirba or Mike Fay (subtle historical reference from about 25 years ago)?

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't there sufficient evidence that golfers love fast greens? Are supers eventually going to take a cut in pay if their jobs become easier to replicate with less talented people?

[BCowan]

Isn't there sufficient evidence that golfers love fast greens? Are supers eventually going to take a cut in pay if their jobs become easier to replicate with less talented people?

No, they are going to have more free time to reply to your posts and spend time with their dogs. 

[corey miller]

Some of the fault for slow play with guests is the caddies who think they need to read every put. 


Slow play itself is more related to temperament and attitude than to handicap.


And in the "you gotta hear it to believe it"...one of the younger better players (a big cause of slow play) at my club has suggested that those that play the back tees "deserve" extra time on the course and should not be subjected to 4:00 mandate.