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Ira Fishman

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Bandon Trails #14
« on: November 09, 2017, 10:31:00 AM »
When we played Bandon Trails, Sven told us that #14 was controversial and generally not well liked.  I enjoyed the hole.  Yes the green is very small and narrow, but the hole is short so hitting a short club in.  The hole fit in well with what I thought was a great three hole stretch (13-15).


If there is an existing thread, please feel free to ignore this one.


Ira

BCrosby

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 10:34:24 AM »
Ira -


I loved the 14th at BT. There were several threads about it back in the day. I recall strong opinions expressed both pro and con.


Bob

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »
Ira,


It's a shame you didn't get to see the original. Some critics didn't like it so to stop the bad press it was softened. You may also not be aware that a golfer died climbing the hill from the 13th green so they hired a trolley service to cart players to the tee. This unfortunately screams problems ahead. Funny thing, when I refused to ride the trolley my caddie jumped in for a rest. It was one of the finest golf holes in the world before golfers got ahold of it.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 10:50:47 AM »
John,


Yes, Sven told us the story about the unfortunate death. We did hop in a cart to make the climb.  Sven was double bagging for us and made the walk despite our offer to share the cart.  Then again he is much younger and in much better shape than I am.


I would have liked to see the original #14,


Ira

Howard Riefs

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ira Fishman

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 11:11:45 AM »
Howard,


Thanks.  I am terrible at the search function and did not find them when I tried.


Ira

Howard Riefs

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 11:19:46 AM »
Howard,


Thanks.  I am terrible at the search function and did not find them when I tried.

Ira


No problem. Happy to help. Sometimes putting quote marks around the term does the trick.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Will Lozier

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 04:06:42 PM »
When we played Bandon Trails, Sven told us that #14 was controversial and generally not well liked.  I enjoyed the hole.  Yes the green is very small and narrow, but the hole is short so hitting a short club in.  The hole fit in well with what I thought was a great three hole stretch (13-15).

If there is an existing thread, please feel free to ignore this one.

Ira


Ira,


Having caddied on and played Bandon Trails around 50 times, the aspect of the 14th that I think makes it a great hole is that it is an easy bogey in a stroke play format. Golfers see the yardage before they even see the hole and think they are entitled to at least a birdie attempt, let alone an easy 4. Then, when they see it for the first time standing on the tee, the idea of eagle pops into the head of the good player or long hitter. But, unless you leave your tee ball on the upper left portion of fairway where you are staring down the line of the green, all bets are off - just about anything can happen given the size of the green, its orientation to the lower level, the dropoffs on all sides, and perhaps most importantly, the firm turf.


Nevertheless, with no ego, a missed drive to the lower level can then be played safely to miss left if anywhere, and an up & down can be had for a solid 4 or at worst a 5. It's the greedy golfer who cannot operate pragmatically who pays a sometimes steep price in their stroke play round.


In the preferred format of match play, just about any score is possible with the loser able to simply pick up and take a 5 or 6 when a much higher number can be had through over aggressive play. I think the haters had a high score on a stroke play round that ruined their score (ego).


Nonetheless, I think it would be a more interesting hole if the green were expanded to the left all the way to the hill, creating a punchbowl on the left half. It would still be possible to putt into the right side bunkers or off the back if you miss the right half of the green.


I'll be back to play it this summer for the first time in 10 years so I can't wait!


Cheers,
Will
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 10:17:33 PM by Will Lozier »

Dave McCollum

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 09:40:36 PM »
Great hole.  Had the pleasure of playing it with the guy that built it and then modified it, Dave Zinkand, and he explained why.  Didn't make sense to me why to change it.  But the result is a great hole.  Will is right:  bogie is fairly easy, par requires precision, birdie requires driving the green, not impossible for most golfers, but unlikely.       
 

Emile Bonfiglio

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2017, 01:21:00 AM »
I've played the hole 8 times. Last attempt yielded my first birdie there. I hit a 3 wood that ended up in the collection area on the lower right. Hit a great chip to a front right hole location, that landed just past the big bunker and released to 3 ft.  I've also made a 10 there before as well.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 09:20:04 AM »
As Emile's post shows, you don't have to drive the green to make birdie.  Having the holding wind in the winter often makes it easier to hit and hold the proper portion of the green, and for a front pin being on the right side off of the tee is not a bad result.


I'd echo Will's comments on the hole, especially his thoughts on how getting greedy here can lead to an X.


Like its counterpart short par 4 on the course, the 8th, if you're going for the green you have to be pretty precise off of the tee (generally when one of these is drivable the other isn't).  Both greens defend themselves well with their internal contours, and getting out of position can demand precise shots to have any chance at a birdie putt. 


It is a Love It of Hate It hole, often determined by how people do on their first play. 


In the general context of the puzzle that is Trails, once you unlock where the misses are on the course, it is pretty easy to negotiate a safe route around the course.  For the first timer, it means having to overcome the visual tricks and subtle eye-pulls to the pin that Bill and Ben created here.  You miss left at 2, and unless you're laying up, the play is well left on 6.  At 7, 9, 10 and 11, there is way more room playing away from the flag off of the tee (even if it doesn't look like it), and little chance of trouble.  On 17, any up and down from left is way easier from right of the green, and the opposite holds true on 18. 


The most common refrain we hear is "with all that room over there, I had to hit it here."  Its part over-aggressiveness, part not thinking past what your eyes are telling you.  Hopefully, folks are able to build on what they learn on each successive round, and the best path for your game and the conditions that day becomes evident.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 10:03:38 AM »
Played it in the first or second year.


I think the biggest issue was not the green concept or the green surface.
It was once you missed the putt (on the lower shelf), it ended up down the hill and ran into the fescue at the bottom.
We had a back right pin and three of four ended up down there after putting.


I was hard for two of my playing partners to come to terms with a six footer, followed by 60 degree wedge.
... and then having that same thing happen "a second time".


Think the hole is great - thought that pin location was over the top.
It was more manageable the next time I went back.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 06:04:04 PM »
As Emile's post shows, you don't have to drive the green to make birdie.  Having the holding wind in the winter often makes it easier to hit and hold the proper portion of the green, and for a front pin being on the right side off of the tee is not a bad result.


I'd echo Will's comments on the hole, especially his thoughts on how getting greedy here can lead to an X.


Like its counterpart short par 4 on the course, the 8th, if you're going for the green you have to be pretty precise off of the tee (generally when one of these is drivable the other isn't).  Both greens defend themselves well with their internal contours, and getting out of position can demand precise shots to have any chance at a birdie putt. 


It is a Love It of Hate It hole, often determined by how people do on their first play. 


In the general context of the puzzle that is Trails, once you unlock where the misses are on the course, it is pretty easy to negotiate a safe route around the course.  For the first timer, it means having to overcome the visual tricks and subtle eye-pulls to the pin that Bill and Ben created here.  You miss left at 2, and unless you're laying up, the play is well left on 6.  At 7, 9, 10 and 11, there is way more room playing away from the flag off of the tee (even if it doesn't look like it), and little chance of trouble.  On 17, any up and down from left is way easier from right of the green, and the opposite holds true on 18. 


The most common refrain we hear is "with all that room over there, I had to hit it here."  Its part over-aggressiveness, part not thinking past what your eyes are telling you.  Hopefully, folks are able to build on what they learn on each successive round, and the best path for your game and the conditions that day becomes evident.


Sven


The visual tricks are awesomely deceptive. Sven gave me the line, but my feeble brain still got pulled to the wrong place. I am pretty sure it would take me more than a few more plays to avoid the tricks. That may say a lot about my shortcomings, but I think it also says much about the quality of the design.

Btw, I am not a C&C acolyte. I have only played two. Not a big fan of Kapalua. Really appreciated BT.

Ira
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:07:12 PM by Ira Fishman »

Will Lozier

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Re: Bandon Trails #14
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 10:28:09 PM »
Great hole.  Had the pleasure of playing it with the guy that built it and then modified it, Dave Zinkand, and he explained why.  Didn't make sense to me why to change it.  But the result is a great hole.  Will is right:  bogie is fairly easy, par requires precision, birdie requires driving the green, not impossible for most golfers, but unlikely.       
 


Dave,


Strangely enough, in my own 15 or so plays of Trails, I think I birdied 14 only twice, bogeyed it twice, and took double once. I always tried to play it aggressively off the tee, relatively safely on the approach, and if putting towards the back or to the right, very cautiously on the green. The very last time I played it, I made 3 and did it from the lower right fairway when I stiffed a 58-degree wedge downwind to a front-middle pin, probably one of the better wedge shots I've ever hit. You can make 3 from the lower right side, but it certainly requires a precise shot. I believe I drove the green only once and three-putted to a back pin. Again....great hole!!


Cheers

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