[David_Tepper]

Peter P. & Kalen B. -

Attempting to compare density of golf course in Scotland to those in Canada or the U.S. based on land mass size and/or population is an utterly pointless exercise that proves nothing. If you compared the number hockey rinks in Canada vs. Scotland or basketball courts in the U.S. vs. Scotland, you would find similar discrepancies.   

The role and prominence of these sports in the various countries is very, very different. Golf is a true national sport in Scotland, played across a wide spectrum of society there. That is not the case in either the U.S. or Canada.

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

The figures for UK golf usuage/ course requirement used to be (in the 90s) 1 golf course unit (18 holes) for every 27,000 people within a 20 minute drive time radius.


Less people play golf now than the 90s, I reckon it might push back to 33,000 even 35,000 persons.


In Scotland the % of people that played golf was always more, I don't remember those figures though but quite a lot more i think.

[Rich Goodale]

Since Dornoch has been brought into this discussion, let me introduce some facts and observations:

--in the 1900-1960 period the Dornoch (Bay) Hotel was the Gleneagles of the Highlands, with Rolls Royces waiting at the RR Station spur to bring the toffs and minor royals arriving from Dunrobin Castle.  If you visit the hotel today, look at the woodwork of the brilliant central staircase and the adjacent "American Bar."  There was a decent pitch and putt between the Hotel and RDGC which still exists, but is not maintained today.  IF there were a demand for more ***** accomodation, the place would ideal, but it would have to be demolished and rebuilt, and the numbers would just not compute, given that....

--....the Royal Golf Hotel, which stands at the first tee at RDGC has been on life support for at least 15 years.  Also, the best and greatest golf hotel I have ever stayed at (the Burghfield) was sold and remodeled (for c. $5 mm) as an apprecenticeship school for the local council 10 years ago.

--My extended family gathers in Dornoch every summer with 40-50 people from age 8-80+, all in rental homes/AirB+Bs/caravans. This is the future of Scottish golf and Scottish tourism.

--IMHO

Rich

[JESII]

Maybe I’ll tackle this from a slightly different angle...


If the goal is good (or great) golf, and one more course is going to be built in this world, would we vote for Scotland or just about anywhere else?

[Niall C]

Rich

I recall fondly family holidays in the Burghfield House Hotel c.1970 when I was a nipper. As I remember it, it was smart enough for the time but it wasn't five star. Don't know about the Dornoch Bay Hotel back then but having stayed in it a couple of years ago you could see from its faded glory that it could well have been very smart. My dad certainly didn't drive a roller (Austin Princess if anyone is interested). The point though is that there was a range of accommodation as there is now.

Not that that matters too much if the greenfee is £145 for the Championship course and £45 for the Struie. That's where I think some people are perhaps deluding themselves. The higher the greenfee the more it polarises the type of visitor to the well healed and from what I can see they are generally on a grand tour playing the Open rota courses and therefore unlikely to hang around anyway.

What Ian is hankering after actually used to happen back in the day when golf/greenfees was much more affordable.

Niall

[Niall C]

As to whether Scotland has enough golf courses, with respect to Marty, it's a pretty silly question. 'Scotland' is not one market, and 'Scottish golf' covers a whole lot of ground from a nine holer in a little village with an honesty box to the super high end stuff like Skibo. Yes, it is a continuum, but Traigh GC and the Carnegie Club are not in any sense competitors.


A better question is whether there is demand in a particular locality for more golf. Then you get into the issue of where the golfers might come from -- how many will be local, how many tourist, from where?

Adam

As usual I don't have numbers to hand but I vaguely recall that when they analysed the numbers for the top Ayrshire courses a few years back the number of US/North Americans was less than 10%, Europeans something like double that and then the rest split between Scots and rest of the UK.

As DT alluded to, the scale of local spending is greater than many on here appreciate, its just that they tend to spend less per head than your average US visitor, or so I would perceive. So again my perception, is that you have a polarisation of the market with a greater  percentage of US visitors going high end. "Locals" ie. Scots, are more likely to do a one and done for somewhere like RDGC given the cost. Other better courses are following suit and greenfees generally are rising a lot more than inflation. Something has got to give.

That's where I think ordinary clubs are suffering where they are losing members who can't afford to keep a membership and play games elsewhere as a visitor. So in that sense I suppose Traigh and Skibo are competing for a finite amount of cash.

Niall

[Niall C]

Marty -

Out of curiosity, what percentage of golfers playing Kingsbarns take caddies?

DT

I’d guess maybe 80 - 90ish at peak. Early and late season that drops to maybe 40%. Season runs from mid-May to end-October.

I'm assuming that early and late season you will have more locals taking advantage of the reduced greenfee and who wouldn't be the type to take a caddy anyway, correct ? Hypothetically speaking, how many locals do you think you might have caddied for if you actually had been caddying ?

Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

The ‘locals’ who are eligible for the reduced green fees are either:
R&A members
Or
Links Trust ticket holders who live in St A or the old North East Fife DC area.
They NEVER take Caddies!
 
F.

[Simon Holt]

Rich

I recall fondly family holidays in the Burghfield House Hotel c.1970 when I was a nipper. As I remember it, it was smart enough for the time but it wasn't five star. Don't know about the Dornoch Bay Hotel back then but having stayed in it a couple of years ago you could see from its faded glory that it could well have been very smart. My dad certainly didn't drive a roller (Austin Princess if anyone is interested). The point though is that there was a range of accommodation as there is now.

Not that that matters too much if the greenfee is £145 for the Championship course and £45 for the Struie. That's where I think some people are perhaps deluding themselves. The higher the greenfee the more it polarises the type of visitor to the well healed and from what I can see they are generally on a grand tour playing the Open rota courses and therefore unlikely to hang around anyway.

What Ian is hankering after actually used to happen back in the day when golf/greenfees was much more affordable.

Niall

100% correct on the visitors doing a hit and run Niall, certainly if the price of Coul is to be in that upper bracket.


Out of interest, what are the top clubs that those percentages come from in Ayrshire?


I'm surprised (rather than saying it's wrong, as I don't know!) if that is the case at Prestwick, Troon and Turnberry, but could see those percentages play out at Dundonald, Gailes and Western.


I'll try and get the numbers for some of the top end East Coast courses.

[Jerry Kluger]

Does anyone seriously believe that building a new high end course will somehow benefit the historical courses like Golspie? Do you realize that the Carnoustie Hotel has had significant financial issues for years - people come to play the course and leave. We stayed at the hotel and there were very few fellow golfers in June. I would suggest that the vast majority of Americans who come to Scotland to play golf view it as a luxury trip and go from high end course to high end course and leave the rest for those like us who care about gca and locals. It is amazing to me how many golfers I speak to who have been to Scotland to play golf have never heard of North Berwick - dare I say that it is an important historical course for its architecture. They know about Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns, Trump Aberdeen, etc. but have very limited knowledge of the courses that made Scottish golf so important.

[Andy Stamm]

Simon -

Thanks for your helpful and informative post.

Do you (or anyone else) have a sense of what the breakdown in play at courses like Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart is between locals, traveling golfers from within the UK and visitors from abroad (North America & Europe)?

I suspect that the percentage of play from the first two groups is higher than one would think.

DT

Kingsbarns gets some local play. Each St Andrews Club gets a Kingsbarns day in addition to student clubs and the like, and those are heavily subscribed. No caddies then though! Additionally locals and R&A members can play for 45 pounds any time. That's used but not all that often. That used to cost a fiver and the local clubs got more times, but with the tee sheet quite full at full freight, things are a changing.

[David_Tepper]

Castle Stuart does offer discounted green fees to members of the Scottish Golf Union and residents of the IV25 area postcode. In fact, I think the green fee there for those who qualify is noticeably cheaper than it is for playing Nairn or Royal Dornoch at the Visitor green fee rate. 

If/when Coul Links opens for business, it would not surprise me at all if similar considerations are on offer.

[Ryan Farrow]

Maybe I’ll tackle this from a slightly different angle...


If the goal is good (or great) golf, and one more course is going to be built in this world, would we vote for Scotland or just about anywhere else?

Scotland would surely be more suitable for golf. That should carry a lot of weight in the decision making process.

[Kalen Braley]

At the end of the day, its a simple question really.


Does supply meet demand both locally and from visitors?  If so, and there is extra leftover... then building new ones doesn't make sense.


If not build more I guess...


P.S.  I equate it to liquor stores in Cali, you can always squeeze in one more and it'll do enough business to stay open.... 

[Rich Goodale]

Rich

I recall fondly family holidays in the Burghfield House Hotel c.1970 when I was a nipper. As I remember it, it was smart enough for the time but it wasn't five star.

I never said the Burghfield was 5 star, but the Dornoch up to the 50's was so (by the standards of the day, and as I have been told).  The Burghfield in its heyday (1970- 1990) was the finest golfing hotel I have ever known (even though FawltyTowersish at times) and I tear up when I know that I will never see such a place again.


Rich

[Mark Chaplin]

Scotland probably had enough courses in 1930 but any sport that sits still and rests on it’s laurels will die.

[Mark Pearce]

Scotland probably had enough courses in 1930 but any sport that sits still and rests on it’s laurels will die.

I simply don't understand the point you're making, Mark.  Are you saying that not building new courses that aren't needed would be sitting still and resting on its heels?  Why does golf need new courses for the sport to develop?


The irony of attracting visitors to the ancient home of golf by building brand new country clubs for a day (the sort of facility that has historically had no place in Scottish golf) seems lost on so many here.

[Tom_Doak]

The irony of attracting visitors to the ancient home of golf by building brand new country clubs for a day (the sort of facility that has historically had no place in Scottish golf) seems lost on so many here.

For all of the new courses in Scotland (except maybe Trump's) the business plan is really the converse; they have all been built to cash in on the number of golf tourists who are already drawn to Scotland.  That's why they are going up relatively near to other famous links instead of out on their own, like Sand Hills or Bandon or Barnbougle. 


The various regional interests all love the idea of a new development attracting attention to their region, and the developers are more than happy to accept whatever assistance is on offer - which is another part of the business plan.  But they didn't build Kingsbarns to benefit Elie, and the whole model of the Castle Course was to siphon off visitors who were headed to Kingsbarns instead of the New or the Eden.

[Marty Bonnar]

Tom,
You come from a particularly well-informed position here, so I’d like to hear your thoughts on this. Given your druthers, in a Scottish context only, would you have preferred to:
1. Do as you did, and take a commission from a rich man to build a private facility on the coast.
2. Get a commission from a public body to build a public course (either on the coast or inland).
3. Be asked to renovate one of Scotland’s historic but tired MacKenzie courses.
No agenda here, just curious to hear your preference. I’ll understand if you prefer not to comment!
Cheers,
MB.

[Jerry Kluger]

I believe that the general consensus is that the number of golfers is decreasing - I read that this is happening in the UK as well as the US.  I also have to believe that the number of golfers going to Scotland to play golf is also not increasing but let's say that it is at least maintaining its current level as opposed to decreasing. That means that you have a given number of potential customers who may come and play your courses.  Am I then correct that if a new course is built that it will have to take golfers from other courses in order to generate revenue to pay for it and make a profit and at the same time reduce the number of golfers/customers going to other courses.  Perhaps you might suggest that more golfers will go to Scotland because of this new course but is there really anything to support this proposition - are golfers going to Scotland because of Castle Stuart or Kingsbarns or would they be going anyway?

[Niall C]

Tom
 
I don’t mean to be flippant or cheeky but I do wonder how much a business plan actually came into it in the decision process for a lot of these high end golf developments ? With the exception of the Castle course which was a quasi-public funded development, it seems to me that the real impetus was a high worth individual having a desire to develop a course in Scotland, the home of golf, rather than as a solid business proposition.
 
I could be wrong about that but I can’t help thinking that any business plan as such was developed after the event.
 
Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Jerry,


most of the overseas golfers playing the likes of CS, KB or Trump are belt notching and would not play the other 'lesser' courses. It is a shame as they get no feel for the genuine Scottish golfing experience on these whirlwind tours. So to answer you question no they do not take any trade away.


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

I like Marty's question.


For a long time, I've felt that any new links facility built should be public funded and low budget.


I've got this dream - which I haven't followed through with because I've no energy for the fight - to build a kids course in the dunes beside Royal Dublin. It's right next to the busiest beach in Ireland. What a great public facility it would be to introduce kids to the game.


I'd also love to see 3 or 4 of the forgotten Mackenzie courses in Scotland getting a master renovation (more so than restoration in this case as long as by the right hand at the wheel). Scotland has a few inlands that could possibly step jump in quality with the right treatment.

[Niall C]

Ally

That's a great idea about the kid's course and would be fantastic if that happened.

I also agree with your comments about some of Scotland's inland courses. We've seen a trend in the last 20 years of links courses chopping out gorse etc, and I'd love to see a similar trend in inland courses with the removal of trees. That on it's own would be a real big step I think. One of the big complaints you hear from members of inland courses is that they only have a 4 or 5 month season because the ground becomes too wet and soft/muddy. Tree removal in a lot of instances could help with that, as would an upgrade in drainage of course.

Extending the playing season thereby providing better value for money would surely help with retaining and increasing the number of members.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Kids course or muni pitch-n-putt. Wonderful. Great idea.
Perhaps, in order to get permission to be built, every new 18-holer should have to have a kids course or muni pitch-n-putt or Himalayas type putting green as well?
atb

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