Redan, can we get enough!

[ForkaB]

Bill

Hang in there!  Just as "The Redan" is not a true "redan" fortress (see George Bahto's expunged description which mentions the cannonading cannonballs to see why), so any "redan" golf hole can be whatever it likes, as long as it has the "The Redan's" most important characteristic, which is, IMO, the front to back, right to left slope.  Some may like it blind and some may not (I'm in the "not" category) but to call any "redan" bogus is superfluous--they all are!

TE Paul

I have this great vision of you and your new buddies at NGLA shouting "Go! Go! Go!" at balls that you cannot see, and balls that you have no way of knowing whether or not you actually want them to "go" or "stop" (given that some of them might be trickling blindly past the pin and over the green).  Is this some sort of Zen ritual thing at NGLA, or did you have your quota of Southsiders before you teed it up?

Pat M

I truly hope that Brian P isn't getting "exacerbated."  He can already get pretty OTT from time to time just as he is!

[Brian Phillips]

Bill

Hang in there!  Just as "The Redan" is not a true "redan" fortress (see George Bahto's expunged description which mentions the cannonading cannonballs to see why), so any "redan" golf hole can be whatever it likes, as long as it has the "The Redan's" most important characteristic, which is, IMO, the front to back, right to left slope.  Some may like it blind and some may not (I'm in the "not" category) but to call any "redan" bogus is superfluous--they all are!

Pat M

I truly hope that Brian P isn't getting "exacerbated."  He can already get pretty OTT from time to time just as he is!

Rich,

I just don't see how you can say that a redan can be redan even if it is below as long as the green falls away from you from right to left.  What protection does that really offer, apart from you cannot stop the ball?  A redan green has to be some form of fortress that is slightly uphill surely?

My OTT attitude will hopefully change with 'maturity and age'!!  I often regret my outbursts but hopefully this will become less common over the next 30 years...  


Brian

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

Last night the "History Channel" devoted a program to
"The Charge of the Light Brigade".

According to the program, The Light Brigade did not charge a Russian Redan Fortress, they charged a Kossack artillery position, having run the gauntlet of three artillery positions, one from the left flank, the second from the right flank, and the third position, dead ahead, the one that they were charging.

The program indicated that in total, only 200 rounds of artillery were fired at them from all three batteries, in the approximately 7 minutes of the calvary charge, and that they reached the third artillery position, lowered their lances and used their swords in the pitch of the battle.

The Program mentioned six or seven redoubt positions, which I felt may have been hills or redan like structures.  I'm going to order the tape and will let you know more, it was very interesting.

Without the ability to hide behind a fronting embankment, the redan feature would have no defensive advantage, other then its elevation.  If a golf ball were able to be seen, so then could the entire body of a prone soldier and cannon and rifle fire would easily hit their targets, thus the feature would have no tactical purpose.

The 4th at NGLA, 3rd at Piping Rock and 7th at Westhampton are excellent examples of golf holes true to the "Redan Principle"

All others are illegitimate pretenders  

[TEPaul]

Rich:

It's a shame you visualize us screaming Go GO GO at our balls on the Redan that you assume we can't see. That proves to me a few things. 1/ You don't have a very clear recollection of what the hole looks like in real detail. 2/ You played the course in soft conditions, and 3/ since you did you probably have little understanding of how it can play when in really firm and fast conditions with really fast greens--something I call NGLA's "ideal maintenance meld".

First of all when we were screaming Go GO we were doing that when our balls were filtering slowly and left across the fairway "kicker" to the right of the green as well as when they slowly tumbled off the fringe onto the green surface and slowly picked up speed down the green left! And that area as well as probably 10-12 steps onto the right side of the green is VERY visible from the tee. After that and to the left the ball will disappear from view hidden by the top of the redan bunker front and left.

When the course is in this type of condition it truly is a joy to behold because all the nuance of the ground is highlighted tremendously which influences the ball in such interesting ways and allows the kinds of things I'm describing to happen.

Those shots were really memorable because we attempted shots that were probably a bit low margin for error. Basically the ball has got to get through the fairway kicker or you hang up in it and a three putt down to the pin is almost assured. If the ball comes off the fairway kicker onto the green too fast it will filter off the green on the low side. It has to almost stop on the greensurface edge and then built up some speed down the left sloping high right side of the green of which probably the right 15+ paces is not even pinnable (where the ball will not come to reast!).

If the ball is too far right on the fairway or has too much forward momentum it will go right through into the back bunker.

Obviously the other way to play the hole when in that conditon is to fly the ball to the the very right of the green surface and hope it has enough check on it to slow down and slowly break left and down the green toward the pin with enough momentum.

But it doesn't suprise me that you thought we were screaming at balls that we couldn't see. Just another good example of how unobservant you can be regarding architecture!  

[ForkaB]

Brian

I think that in today's day and age, the fortress element of even "The" redan is pretty irrelevant.  Even master strategists/low ball hitters such as Papazian and Paul probably fly it to the front-middle of the green and just treat the frontage of the green as a mildy Dell-like fature.  Keep that OTT attitude, BTW--we need moreof it on here!

Patrick

It was not I but George Bahto who made the Light Brigade references, and who is to doubt him on all things "redanish"?

Tom P

I remember remarking a while back that I thought that #4 NGLA was relatively unblind (i.e. one could see more of the flagstick on the"normal" back left pin position than at NB) but all sorts of MacDheads jumped all over me and I demurred to their greater experience.  You seem to be confirming my recollection.  Of course, in my one bite at the cherry I just went for the pin, pulled it slightly into the long left bunker and had an easy up and down.  Try that one next time you are perplexed.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I have no real idea what the "MacDheads" told you about the relative height and visibility of the flagstick on #4 at NGLA on various parts of that green compared to the relative height and visibility of the flag at North Berwick's #15 on various parts of that green. Does it really matter or have you perhaps thought to consider that the flags at North Berwick may be of a different height than NGLA?

I spoke above about being able to see the ball roll across the right side of the green at NGLA's #4 for a time before disappearing from view due to the top of the redan bunker! No matter where the flag is on NGLA's #4 you can see some portion of it although not always the base of lower portion.

So, this, Rich is why a good portion of the flagstick from the tee at NGLA's #4 is always visible although not the ball on the green or as it rolls across about the left 2/3 of the green. Perhaps I should mention to you if it has not occured to you that the height of a golf ball is perhaps 1/50th the height of a flagstick!