Santapazienza - Sao Paulo, Brazil (18 holes posted)

[Randy Thompson]

Here is a few of the ways they hid away the cart paths as mentioned, most of this is on video and for some reason doesn't work as well in photos:

[The last photo looks like Boa Vista. Did you play both courses. Is the Palmer course open and recieving play. How did it play, certainly looked different and more fun then your typical Palmer course? How is the Olympic course and are they getting together any kind of administration and organization? Was it hard to get on in Boa Vista? Why didn`t you play Pilara in Argentina? What was the best maintained course you played! How many beefe de chirozos did you eat in Argentina?

[Tim_Weiman]

A bit harsh, don't you think, David? No need to get personal with Tim. I would HAVE thought by now you would take criticism a little better than that.

Eric,


No worries. I don't know David but perhaps he didn't consider that there are other fairly well travelled students of golf architecture on this site or that I have actually spent time on Ipanema Beach. So, yes, I know the dangers as well as the eye candy.


More to the point, IMO, there is a real logic to the rating system Tom Doak developed (the "Doak scale") for the Confidential Guide: how far out of one's way should a golf architecture junkie go to see a particular course?


David took a common approach to displaying Santapazienza. He presents a couple pictures of each hole. Ok. The problem is that none of the pictures are compelling either from an architecture point of view or even as just a beautiful place to experience.


Santapaziena might offer both. However, the pictures just don't make either case.


As for the Doak scale and jumping on a plane, I'd rather go see Hirono in Japan than something like Santapaziena.

[Alex Miller]

My $.02 - I'd also rather go visit Hirono, but I was unaware of Santapazienza before.


I am glad to have read David's review. I don't think censoring it based on inferred motivation is something to call for given that everyone has the same photos to draw conclusions from. There are photo essays of Torrey Pines on this site and I don't think its status has been raised from them. If they are uninspiring to some then I think they're serving their purpose and helping some form opinions/interest. Let's assume each poster has an IQ above 40 and can make those decisions themselves.


So thanks David, I'm glad to have seen what you shared.

[David Davis]

[The last photo looks like Boa Vista. Did you play both courses. Is the Palmer course open and recieving play. How did it play, certainly looked different and more fun then your typical Palmer course? How is the Olympic course and are they getting together any kind of administration and organization? Was it hard to get on in Boa Vista? Why didn`t you play Pilara in Argentina? What was the best maintained course you played! How many beefe de chirozos did you eat in Argentina?

The last photo was of the cart path built through the rainforest linking 11 to 12 and 12 to 13 at Santapazienza.


I played the Palmer Course at Boa Vista yes, much better than the other one. Some really interesting holes there. However there was a stretch that didn't work for me. 10 was a geometrically awkward hole that has you hitting over the corner of a perfectly square lake to a fairway too narrow to stop you ball. It's a risk reward short 4. I don't say this often but one of the worst holes I've seen on the trip. It can be fixed though, that's the good news. 11, had a cool tee shot, another short uphill par 4 dogleg hard right. However the green was tucked in the steep face of a hill and had two tiers and a super steep false front, it was literally bordering unplayable. 12. a spectacular hole but really tough for anyone but really good players. Longish carry, into the wind from really high to a not all too wide heavily treed fairway. Second shot blind and dropping about 50 yds. Kind of cool but very hard with a huge difficult green. 13 a par 5 that didn't work well unless you are good enough to go for it in two. Blind tee shot, ok, second shot near impossible as the fairway where you need to lay up was very narrow with deep native on either side and a steep slope from right to left. If you are good and long enough to go for it in two then it opened up around the green. Very much all or nothing. Not a great hole architecturally.


16. was a 700+ yds par 5 from the back tee with a 290 yds carry. Wind behind it took me 3 shots to make the fairway. I wasn't long enough for that shot and to be fair we were playing from one tee forward. it was a good hole actually but given I had never played a 700 yds par 5 and the back tee was pretty cool visually I wanted to try. The finishing holes were excellent actually. Only issue I had was with the holes mentioned. Still otherwise a really fun course and as you said good for Palmer design, though I haven't played all too many. One thing of note is that it's a housing development as is usually the case. No houses on it right now so it's awesome. But there are a lot of lots sold and I guarantee I won't be a fan of it once it's full of houses.




Olympic Course was fun but really more of a championship course without a lot of charm. It was in perfect condition and very much links like though the grasses are not conducive of using the ground game at all. Thus not a links in my book. Links like with some ponds thrown in. Nice look to it huge scale. Back 9 was more interesting than the front.


Played with a member at Boa Vista. Only had 1 [size=78%]beefe de chirozos. [/size][size=78%]Poor effort on my part.[/size]
[size=78%][/size]
I didn't have time to play Pilara, but played Nordelta and one Nicholas course per trip is more than enough for me.

[David Davis]

My $.02 - I'd also rather go visit Hirono, but I was unaware of Santapazienza before.


I am glad to have read David's review. I don't think censoring it based on inferred motivation is something to call for given that everyone has the same photos to draw conclusions from. There are photo essays of Torrey Pines on this site and I don't think its status has been raised from them. If they are uninspiring to some then I think they're serving their purpose and helping some form opinions/interest. Let's assume each poster has an IQ above 40 and can make those decisions themselves.


So thanks David, I'm glad to have seen what you shared.

Thanks Alex!

[David Davis]

Alex and Tim,


Hirono is one of my favorites and in my personal Top 50 in the World and very arguably the best gift Alison left to the golf world. I love it, truly and will be back soon.


It has one major blemish, the par 3 13th has a Redan green but the tee boxes were moved 50 yds to the left of the original placement so that they could lengthen the previous hole. For me one of the great travesties in golf. The new hole is just another parkland par 3 with water and the old hole was a masterpiece as far as I can tell.


I'd rather see Hirono again over most courses on the planet. Here's a more fair question for you. Would you rather see Oitavos Dunes or Santapazienza. Oitavos Dunes is Top 100 Golf Mag in the World. I'd play Santapazienza 9-1 over it and Portugal is only a couple hour flight for me.

[Alex Miller]

Alex and Tim,


Hirono is one of my favorites and in my personal Top 50 in the World and very arguably the best gift Alison left to the golf world. I love it, truly and will be back soon.


It has one major blemish, the par 3 13th has a Redan green but the tee boxes were moved 50 yds to the left of the original placement so that they could lengthen the previous hole. For me one of the great travesties in golf. The new hole is just another parkland par 3 with water and the old hole was a masterpiece as far as I can tell.


I'd rather see Hirono again over most courses on the planet. Here's a more fair question for you. Would you rather see Oitavos Dunes or Santapazienza. Oitavos Dunes is Top 100 Golf Mag in the World. I'd play Santapazienza 9-1 over it and Portugal is only a couple hour flight for me.

I had no idea Otiavos was ranked that high. For me personally, these pictures are more interesting than what I've seen of Otiavos Dunes.


Of course I've played neither so these are just one man's speculative thoughts. 

[Sean_A]

David


Thanks for the pix.  The back nine seems to lose its way a bit with more hilly terrain, but most of the greens on the front nine look very good.  They remind me of Palmetto.  Any thoughts?


Ciao

[Ryan Farrow]

The bunkers look completely out of scale, the back 9, wow. 


My 2 cents.

[Keith Phillips]

I tend to agree with Alex.  I appreciate the effort that went into this photo tour and 'from the photos' the course likes like an above-average Fazio effort at the least...and above-average Fazio is very solid, indeed!  Is it top 50 or 100 or 1,000? - I have no clue.  Am I going to jump on a plane to Brazil to play it (assuming I could get access)...no, but that's not the point.  I don't think David called it a Doak 10 and while I've forgotten the definitions I'm not sure many courses rate highly enough to travel 24 hours for a single round in an otherwise underwhelming golf country...now if it was in Wisconsin near Erin Hills perhaps I'd give it a go.  Also, it's not for me to question the motives of the author, or I guess for that matter the respondents.  Saying (I'll paraphrase) 'it doesn't look any better than Gozzer or Shadow Creek' or 'I'd rather go visit Hirono' are hollow comments...who doesn't want to play Hirono, by all means get on a plane and go!  The gratuitous, insulting tone that so many take upon reading a detailed, positive course review that doesn't fit with their personal biases is nauseating.

[Josh Stevens]

I dunno, I think there are some decent bones in there.  The aesthetic is not me, a bit too manicured for my liking and most bunkers would look better if they were half the size, but there is some width, some of the slopes and angles look ok and in general it looks like it would be a nice day out.

I think its a good effort for a difficult part of the world.  The soil wont be great and the climate isn't conducive to good golf, but I don't think I saw a single divot in all those pics. Does anyone actually play it?

[David Davis]

Actually Josh brought up an interesting point. I'd agree that what you see is perfect, literally one of the best manicured and maintained courses I've ever seen. Actually this is in the hands of Rick Holanda who came from Merion and has been the super at many places. He has things running like clockwork there, credit where credit is due, Rick has to be one of the best, no question about it. It would easy to make it too lush etc but they were literally just coming out of the rainy season and the course was playing firm and fast.


Here's the crazy thing and those of you into maintenance and drainage will be the only ones truly impressed by this. I wouldn't of been had I not experienced it myself. The second night of my stay there It started raining about 10 pm, typical torrential downpour that you can only get in the tropical countries during rainy season. That night 35 millimeters of rain fell. Enough to flood any sand based links course. The rain didn't stop till after 8 am. At around 8:30 they were out cutting greens. I was watching this and thinking wait how's that possible.


I had given us 0 % chance of playing, yet at 11:00 we teed off, it was overcast so no sun or wind to speak of drying things out.


The course was in perfect shape still play firm. I spent a fair bit of time speaking to Rick about this and he explained that was normally unheard of that a courses could recover so fast but the build up and drainage system underneath are clearly the best of the best.


Yes, that definitely impressed me as well.

[Mike Sweeney]

If you can honestly look at those picture and try to convince me that you would rather lay on the beach than play that course, or Shadow Creek since you mentioned that or even any average Fazio course then you're either sick of golf, looking at the wrong damn website or perhaps should consider taking on some other hobby. Tennis or polo or anything that might inspire you a bit. If the Top 1% of golf courses in the world don't even make you want to play then I honestly feel bad for you.

David,


Your opening was great, and I was very interested in the storyline of "trying to get Fazio to do it" story. I was thinking "maybe Fazio finally builds what he wants to build rather than what he was supposed to build" (to sell lots).


Unfortunately the pictures came and it just seems like a Fazio course with really boring (but big) bunkers on a very awkward site.


"Top 1% of golf courses in the world"

The modified "Doak Scale" to me is - you have to walk to play golf and if your course can't be walked, then it should not "be rated" on GCA. I realize that GCA does not have a formal rating system. Cart golf becomes a Disneyland version of golf, or in modern terms #fakeGolf.

I genuinely appreciate the efforts you made to post this, and I hope to see some of those other courses from your trip. You (and the owner and Fazio) are taking it pretty hard from all angles here, and that is why "frank commentary" on GCA keeps it unique in the world of golf.

PS - Most people take carts to play golf these days, so clearly I am in the minority and many will see great stuff at Santapazienza.

"Golf is not mountain climbing, nor is the latter golf."  - Walter Travis, 1906 - with help from Ed Homsey of The Travis Society


PPS - Yes, I realize that my logo here is of a Mountain Goat

[David Davis]

David,


Your opening was great, and I was very interested in the storyline of "trying to get Fazio to do it" story. I was thinking "maybe Fazio finally builds what he wants to build rather than what he was supposed to build" (to sell lots).


Unfortunately the pictures came and it just seems like a Fazio course with really boring (but big) bunkers on a very awkward site.


"Top 1% of golf courses in the world"

The modified "Doak Scale" to me is - you have to walk to play golf and if your course can't be walked, then it should not "be rated" on GCA. I realize that GCA does not have a formal rating system. Cart golf becomes a Disneyland version of golf, or in modern terms #fakeGolf.

I genuinely appreciate the efforts you made to post this, and I hope to see some of those other courses from your trip. You (and the owner and Fazio) are taking it pretty hard from all angles here, and that is why "frank commentary" on GCA keeps it unique in the world of golf.

PS - Most people take carts to play golf these days, so clearly I am in the minority and many will see great stuff at Santapazienza.

"Golf is not mountain climbing, nor is the latter golf."  - Walter Travis, 1906 - with help from Ed Homsey of The Travis Society


PPS - Yes, I realize that my logo here is of a Mountain Goat

Mike, thanks appreciate the response and I believe I'm with you. I walk about 125 rounds a year. I ride about 5 when for one reason or another I'm inclined to do so. It may the second 18 on a trip when I have played 36 - 54 holes a day for several days in a row and my feet are so blistered that I can't walk another step or may be that's it's 100 degrees or equivalent on a course that's a challenging walk....and I have blisters. Whatever is the case, I've learned I don't have anything against it when I feel I need to do it.


That being said, I honestly and truly don't mind people not liking things or having different opinions about different types of architecture. In fact, that's what this site is about, what I don't like is spending a couple hours on something thinking finally here's a chance to contribute something that should be of interest to our group of nerds and then getting replies like. I wouldn't play there even if invited or nothing interesting about that course without backing up the statement at all. What value does that bring anyone? Is there anything that can be learned by the readers from that? On top of that it's just plain disrespectful to the author.


Your notes on walking are duly noted in this case however, as I mentioned the course is very walkable. Front 9 has a perfect walking flow and is much shorter walked than with a cart.


The back 9 as I mentioned has two long green to tee walks. I can name many top courses in the world with longer or similar walks that no-one ever comments on so these don't render the course a cartball course. 90 degree temps might well do so for some.


I did walk it, but I also rode. The gaps between 11-12 and 12-13 as mention climb up through the rain forest and are a phenomenally beautiful walk, one that I promise most of us have not experienced in life. You can see monkeys and toucans and all kinds of rainforest animals and vegetation. I didn't go into this as I didn't want to distract from the tour. I did see all of the above, no snakes or large spiders thankfully as I'm not a huge fan of those.


At what point do you break down and ride, even as a walker? Is that with high heat or fatigue?

[MClutterbuck]

Actually Josh brought up an interesting point. I'd agree that what you see is perfect, literally one of the best manicured and maintained courses I've ever seen. Actually this is in the hands of Rick Holanda who came from Merion and has been the super at many places. He has things running like clockwork there, credit where credit is due, Rick has to be one of the best, no question about it. It would easy to make it too lush etc but they were literally just coming out of the rainy season and the course was playing firm and fast.


Here's the crazy thing and those of you into maintenance and drainage will be the only ones truly impressed by this. I wouldn't of been had I not experienced it myself. The second night of my stay there It started raining about 10 pm, typical torrential downpour that you can only get in the tropical countries during rainy season. That night 35 millimeters of rain fell. Enough to flood any sand based links course. The rain didn't stop till after 8 am. At around 8:30 they were out cutting greens. I was watching this and thinking wait how's that possible.


I had given us 0 % chance of playing, yet at 11:00 we teed off, it was overcast so no sun or wind to speak of drying things out.


The course was in perfect shape still play firm. I spent a fair bit of time speaking to Rick about this and he explained that was normally unheard of that a courses could recover so fast but the build up and drainage system underneath are clearly the best of the best.


Yes, that definitely impressed me as well.

David, thanks so much for posting. I would certainly be interested in seeing the course at some point, although it seems the photos donīt adequately capture what you saw.


35mm rain? That does not impress. We have cut grass and played with carts on fairway at 8am at Nordelta with a lot more rain than that... we in fact played after 200mm in winter...

[Tom_Doak]

Here's a more fair question for you. Would you rather see Oitavos Dunes or Santapazienza. Oitavos Dunes is Top 100 Golf Mag in the World. I'd play Santapazienza 9-1 over it and Portugal is only a couple hour flight for me.

Well, lots of people (including you) know that Oitavos Dunes is one of the 4-5 courses that bought its way into the top 100 when it doesn't belong in the conversation at all ... so that's a pretty easy mark for comparison.

[BCowan]

Here's a more fair question for you. Would you rather see Oitavos Dunes or Santapazienza. Oitavos Dunes is Top 100 Golf Mag in the World. I'd play Santapazienza 9-1 over it and Portugal is only a couple hour flight for me.

Well, lots of people (including you) know that Oitavos Dunes is one of the 4-5 courses that bought its way into the top 100 when it doesn't belong in the conversation at all ... so that's a pretty easy mark for comparison.

How is that any different then an Archie getting on a mag panel and having one of their future hop farm courses in the top 100? People in glass houses throwing stones. 

[Tom_Doak]

It was different by $$$$.

[David Davis]

David, thanks so much for posting. I would certainly be interested in seeing the course at some point, although it seems the photos donīt adequately capture what you saw.


35mm rain? That does not impress. We have cut grass and played with carts on fairway at 8am at Nordelta with a lot more rain than that... we in fact played after 200mm in winter...

Marcos,


Interesting that you say that. Now I'm curious, I took a video of the rain because it was so darn hard and just didn't stop. I can hardly imagine have 5.7 times the amount falling in that period of time. Maybe I have my measurement units off? Are you talking one night or are you talking like a week?

[David Davis]

Here's a more fair question for you. Would you rather see Oitavos Dunes or Santapazienza. Oitavos Dunes is Top 100 Golf Mag in the World. I'd play Santapazienza 9-1 over it and Portugal is only a couple hour flight for me.

Well, lots of people (including you) know that Oitavos Dunes is one of the 4-5 courses that bought its way into the top 100 when it doesn't belong in the conversation at all ... so that's a pretty easy mark for comparison.

Yeah, actually that's a good point. I was just naming something close by me without thinking at all about that aspect of what you mentioned.

[George Pazin]

Still curious to know the difference between #6 and #10. Hopefully it's not just 45 yards.

[David Davis]

Still curious to know the difference between #6 and #10. Hopefully it's not just 45 yards.

George,


Sorry to have not answered you before. The holes don't seem similar when you are playing them. 10 is long and brutish has a much different angle off the tee, plays to a large green that accepts a low shot or run up. 6 is a much tighter drive and requires a shot close to the water for the best angle of approach to a small undulated green with a bunker guarding it front and center. This is played with a short to mid iron.


They do have water on the left however and I guess that's the main thing you see in my photos. Sorry they are not better. Although I was quite happy with them ha ha....

[MClutterbuck]

David, thanks so much for posting. I would certainly be interested in seeing the course at some point, although it seems the photos donīt adequately capture what you saw.


35mm rain? That does not impress. We have cut grass and played with carts on fairway at 8am at Nordelta with a lot more rain than that... we in fact played after 200mm in winter...

Marcos,


Interesting that you say that. Now I'm curious, I took a video of the rain because it was so darn hard and just didn't stop. I can hardly imagine have 5.7 times the amount falling in that period of time. Maybe I have my measurement units off? Are you talking one night or are you talking like a week?

David, 200mm is in 24 hours. We actually had 4 years ago a day with 392 mm registered in La Plata, next to Buenos Aires. Obviously that is not normal and it led to major flooding around the city.


An average rain day in summer totals 16-20mm. But we do get some around 100mm.


To point to your 35mm, just looking at last 12 months, we got 35mm days in November (4 separate times) and December 2016 (2 separate times), as well as January, February, March and April 2017.


This past July we got 5 straight days of 4mm, 9.2mm, 28.6mm, 12.8mm and 21.6mm on dormant bermuda. Course did not close.






 

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the expanded answer.


Photos are often deceiving, as anyone who's taken photos of the 1st and 10th at Oakmont knows. There are people that think all of the holes at Sand Hills are the same, for instance. I personally find it quite difficult to separate my own preconceived ideas of how a golf course should be from how it actually is; I suspect most are the same, though few will admit that.


I will say, if I'm ever in Brazil, I will find it difficult to choose golf over Ipanema, but maybe that's why I'll likely never make it there...

[jeffwarne]

Very entertaining thread