[Jim Hoak]

With the discussion of the proposed redos at Merion and Pine Valley, I wanted to enquire about the results of the Keith Foster redo at Philadelphia Cricket.  I am hearing nothing but great things about the work.  I couldn't find a discussion of it in a search of GCA.  Although I have not played it since the redo, I am told that everyone loves it.  Any dissenters?

[Ira Fishman]

Jim,


I walked it when our club pro played in PGA Club Pro Championship a couple of years ago.  It looked terrific from strategy and visual standpoint.  Our pro is a traditionalist regarding architecture, and he loved the place even though he missed the cut (by 1). 


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am absolutely not a dissenter. I had played it both before and after the renovation. I liked the course before. I like the shot values and the greens surrounds. It took good shotmaking and creativity. After the work, I loved the course. The grass was thicker and more consistent. They took a lot of trees down but left enough to let you know you were stll playing a parkland course. I thought they were very judicious in tree removal. The trees gave some definition to the holes and were in play on a few holes but for the most part they just added to the beauty.

[Howard Riefs]

Here's a fairly thorough thread that Powell started and contributed to on the restoration work. The photos are gone as they were housed via Photobucket...


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56045.0.html

[Rick Lane]

In the “In my opinion “section here, there is a good set of “before”pictures in an article by Gib Carpenter, called A cry for the golf course

[Mark Chaplin]

Along with 7 fellow Royal Cinque Ports members we were honoured to be hosted for an informal match at Philly Cricket a couple of Sundays ago. The course was stunning, heavy recent rains made the course softer than everyone would have liked but the conditioning was marvellous. Having seen pictures pre-tree removal the course now looks far more natural and open. It was the surprise package of our tour.


One of our guys is now looking at a cricket match on their pitch!

[Matthew Prince]

I did not play the course pre-restoration, but having played it this past year and having seen pictures of what it looked like before the work, I think what Foster and his crew did is masterful. The course is visually beautiful and strategic at all turns. I particularly loved the walled greenside bunkering found on many holes.


Found these pics on the internets:


6th hole Before:





6th hole After:

[MCirba]

Love the work but does anyone who has played the course with some frequency before and after the restoration also think some of the subtlety of the greens has been lost in translation.

I'm concerned much the same will happen at Merion.   I've yet to see a course where the greens were changed from push-up to USGA-spec where this hasn't happened.

[archie_struthers]

 

I miss the old greens .


Might be a chorus of one but poa greens  might be the very best to putt when they are healthy . There lies the rub , keeping them healthy.  Lots of syringing . . Lots of stress, both on the plant and the superintendent in charge.


However I've often felt redo's with their new strains of bent often fall short of their predecessor in terms of quality. Maybe it's the homogeneity that gets me , maybe the feel under my feet . Also the visual often seems almost clinical or,washed out.  This coming from a guy who is cool with a little brown around the edges might sound strange , but the greens remain the heart of any great golf course.


What say you ?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Along with 7 fellow Royal Cinque Ports members we were honoured to be hosted for an informal match at Philly Cricket a couple of Sundays ago. The course was stunning, heavy recent rains made the course softer than everyone would have liked but the conditioning was marvellous. Having seen pictures pre-tree removal the course now looks far more natural and open. It was the surprise package of our tour.


One of our guys is now looking at a cricket match on their pitch!

Did you folks play PV?

[MCirba]

Might be a chorus of one but poa greens  might be the very best to putt when they are healthy . There lies the rub , keeping them healthy.  Lots of springing , lots of personal attention. Lots of stress, both on the plant and the superintendent in charge.


However I've often felt redo's with their new strains of bent often fall short of their predecessor in terms of quality. Maybe it's the homogeneity that gets me , maybe the feel under my feet . Also the visual often seems almost clinical or,washed out.  This coming from a guy who is cool with a little brown around the edges might sound strange , but the greens remain the heart of any great golf course.

What say you ?

Archie,

You're not alone in that assessment.   

[Mark Chaplin]

Ed yes we were there for a couple of nights.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Might be a chorus of one but poa greens  might be the very best to putt when they are healthy . There lies the rub , keeping them healthy.  Lots of springing , lots of personal attention. Lots of stress, both on the plant and the superintendent in charge.


However I've often felt redo's with their new strains of bent often fall short of their predecessor in terms of quality. Maybe it's the homogeneity that gets me , maybe the feel under my feet . Also the visual often seems almost clinical or,washed out.  This coming from a guy who is cool with a little brown around the edges might sound strange , but the greens remain the heart of any great golf course.


What say you ?

I don't think you are alone at all.  7 out of the top 10 courses in the world feature poa greens.  And more importantly OLD poa push up greens.  You are talking about 100 plus of mutation, natural selection, adaptation, etc.  So to answer the question "what greens are best?" the answer is clearly very old poa.  When the question becomes "what NEW greens are best?", the answer is clearly bent.  Old bent doesn't exist in pure form, and new poa is not great, and newer bent contaminated with newer poa is not great either.  Then there's the whole other question of "what greens are best relative to inputs?"  That's where the answer might be the newer bent varietals.  So it's a very complicated decision to re do old poa greens, as the grass has had years and years to adapt to the cultural practices and they usually putt phenomenally.  However, the inputs required are insane relative to new bents.  But then the cost of redoing greens is massive, especially if you convert from push up to USGA or Cal specs.  So cut and dried, it ain't.

[mike_malone]

I miss the old greens .


Might be a chorus of one but poa greens  might be the very best to putt when they are healthy . There lies the rub , keeping them healthy.  Lots of syringing . . Lots of stress, both on the plant and the superintendent in charge.


However I've often felt redo's with their new strains of bent often fall short of their predecessor in terms of quality. Maybe it's the homogeneity that gets me , maybe the feel under my feet . Also the visual often seems almost clinical or,washed out.  This coming from a guy who is cool with a little brown around the edges might sound strange , but the greens remain the heart of any great golf course.


What say you ?

I so agree with this.

[Matt_Cohn]

7 out of the top 10 courses in the world feature poa greens.  And more importantly OLD poa push up greens.

Don't get carried away. Some of those courses are great despite, not because of, their poa greens.


Give me Philly Cricket and bent grass any day and I'll be happy.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Ed yes we were there for a couple of nights.

Saw you gents in the bar with Bob Morey, excellent work on the blazers. Exudes class, love the look.

[Joe Bausch]

Photos from a visit last weekend:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PCCWissahickon/index.html

[Josh Tarble]

Photos from a visit last weekend:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PCCWissahickon/index.html

Whoa, I have to say the course looks incredible, but that is one of the worst scorecards I've ever seen.

[Mark McKeever]

The old bumpy poa is gone, and the greens roll much better as a result.     Merion changes will probably be very similar.


MM

[BHoover]

I played the Wissahickon course earlier this month. I don’t know what the course was like pre-restoration/renovation (renostoration?), but the current iteration is spectacular. I certainly wasn’t thinking that the greens would have been better with poa, either.


One unique feature I enjoyed was the tee markers using Roman numerals rather than the typical color scheme. The cricket balls were a nice touch, too.

[Tim Martin]

Photos from a visit last weekend:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PCCWissahickon/index.html

Professor-I really enjoyed the Wissahickon photo tour. I have to say that I am enamored with the St. Martin's course as well and would love to see a tour of same. The restoration effort there is also fantastic and worthy of a thread. If there is an existing tour and thread please point me in that direction. Thanks.

[Joe Bausch]

Photos from a visit last weekend:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PCCWissahickon/index.html

Professor-I really enjoyed the Wissahickon photo tour. I have to say that I am enamored with the St. Martin's course as well and would love to see a tour of same. The restoration effort there is also fantastic and worthy of a thread. If there is an existing tour and thread please point me in that direction. Thanks.

Photos of St. Martins:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PCCSM/index.html

[Rory Connaughton]

I have played Baltimore a few times since the work there was completed and enjoy it very much. Is anyone able to offer a comparison?

[BHoover]

I have played Baltimore a few times since the work there was completed and enjoy it very much. Is anyone able to offer a comparison?

I’ve played both in the past few weeks. There are definite similarities between the two courses. I think the land on which BCC sits is probably superior, but that’s certainly not to suggest that PCC does not sit on a great property. At the end of the day, both are very good.

[John Connolly]

Has PC changed their routing scheme? The 2007 piece on this site by Gib Carpenter has the 9th hole as the mid 400's par 4 over water but Joe B's photo tour has the ninth as a short dogleg right par 4. Gib's piece also has 7, 4 and 5 where Joe has 4, 7 and 8, respectively. What gives?

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