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Tim Gallant

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Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« on: October 23, 2017, 12:55:24 PM »
Really enjoyed this video, which talks through the process that WF went through to restore the 18th green. I'm sure the process is nothing new to lots on here, but it was good to just get a view into how these things work:


https://twitter.com/USGA/status/922495953520689153
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JESII

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 03:54:26 PM »
“When greens were built 80, 90, 100 years ago, they were built to hold moisture”


Really?


Think I understand what Gil is trying to say...but he has it dead wrong here.




Otherwise, an amazing video. Kind of mind numbing to consider.

Neil Regan

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 04:16:39 PM »
“When greens were built 80, 90, 100 years ago, they were built to hold moisture”


Really?


Think I understand what Gil is trying to say...but he has it dead wrong here.
...


Jim,


  That's actually Steve Rabideau saying those words, not Gil Hanse.
It's a sound bite.
Impossible to tell the whole story in one sentence.
Perhaps a better sound bite would have been:
"When greens were designed 90 years ago, they held more water for a longer time than we would hope for today."


Anybody who has seen puddles squeegeed off a push-up green would probably agree with this.



Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 05:47:51 PM »
Perhaps, Neil, on the speaker. Absolutely on the revised sound bite.


I cringe at the thought of straight sand under that grass...

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 07:28:16 PM »

The "hold water" theory has been presented, although I wouldn't say the evidence was conclusive.  It is said there were many early punch bowl greens to collect rain water, although I suspect they wanted it to drain out, even if slowly.


To the degree it is true, it really applies to even earlier than when Tillie designed WF. One old golf book was even quoted as saying something like "You can tell a Tillie green....it drains!"


18 was always one of my favorites, with the grass bunker substituting for the more traditional sand to make the green stand out a bit.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 08:23:53 PM »
“When greens were built 80, 90, 100 years ago, they were built to hold moisture”


Really?


Think I understand what Gil is trying to say...but he has it dead wrong here.



Otherwise, an amazing video. Kind of mind numbing to consider.


Uhh, 80, 90, 100 years ago the only irrigation was from the sky, so I find the superintendent's assertion quite plausible.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 09:00:25 PM »
Tom, it is not plausible that the 18th green at Winged Foot was built with the intention of holding water. Quite frankly, I’d be impressed if you could find a citation of any architect building a green with the intention oh holding water.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 06:19:42 AM »
Built to retain moisture not water ::)  USGA specs also are designed to do this gentlemen.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 08:44:06 AM »
How so Jon? I was under the impression the USGA model was designed to get water through as quick as possible.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 09:13:49 AM »
Jim -- the USGA green specification is designed to create a perched water table, i.e. to hold the moisture at a particular level in the profile so the green never gets so dry that the grass dies.


You are correct that one purpose is to get _excess_ water away as quickly as possible during a major rain event. But it's also supposed to ensure that there is always _some_ moisture available to the grass.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 12:27:51 PM »
Thanks Adam, that’s very helpful. And fills in a gap in my understanding of the anti-USGA spec position some experts hold.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 12:32:30 PM »
How so Jon? I was under the impression the USGA model was designed to get water through as quick as possible.


No Jim,


We're that the case it would just be a drainage layer. Subair, pure sand rootzone, etc are all wonderful inventions of men but in the end if you fight nature you will lose which is why smart people work within the natural parameters and fools spend fortunes keeping doomed projects going for as long as possible before losing.


Jon

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 12:45:53 PM »
Re the holding water theory. There's no doubt that, in the very old days, greens were put in hollows to help retain moisture. But we are talking about the VERY old days, i.e. pre 1900, and mostly on the linksland, where obviously there would be a significant problem with keeping greens in condition during a drought. That was one of the reasons that Colt became so busy early in his career; he was busy removing a lot of greens from punchbowls, and he wrote a lot about it.


Tom B -- you would be surprised. By the early years of the 20th century courses were building pipe infrastructures to enable artificial watering of greens. Obviously we aren't talking automated irrigation, but there would be a supply and a guy from the greens crew would attach a hose and water the green. By 1912, when he wrote in Sutton's 'The Book of the Links' Colt was advocating that all greens should have water laid on.


BUT


Equally there is no doubt that greens were being built much later using construction methods whose only purpose really seems to be to retain water. On lots of 1910s, 1920s UK courses there are so-called 'dew pond' greens. And the latest I have come across is 1939. When Alison built Royal Hague in that year, the greens were built with a clay layer. The problems with this layer were the spur to Frank Pont's project to rebuild RH's greens about ten years ago. Was that clay there to retain water? I haven't heard it specifically stated but am struggling to think what else it could be for.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winged Foot West - 18th Green
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 01:02:09 PM »
While surface drainage was a significant reason for the relatively large gradients on many classic greens, there remained a desire to retain moisture.  Talk to the folks from XGD about the water retention properties of Golden Age greens.  Their method ( and I presume other similar products; this is not an ad) allows swift drainage in major rain events permitting courses to retain classic pushed up greens while getting recovery rates similar to USGA or California method greens.  It has worked well for us.

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