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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2017, 05:08:50 PM »

I see my attempt to interject humor by trying to implicate CBM as a consulting Wedding Planner at Merion sank like the Titanic.   :'(

What a dour group!   ;)


I thought it was funny enough, but just don't want to risk another Merion Bru Ha Ha. :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2017, 07:00:35 PM »

 Past improvements to the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th are fabulous.

 


What aspect of changes to the 2nd hole, that included softening one of the greatest greens in the world, are fabulous?
blech...


Mike the bunkering up to the green now looks awesome and there is little chance of a poor approach finding a safe lie. The skyline green takes it back to how the hole must have looked pre-war. [size=78%]As for the green if it's been changed I didn't notice and it remains one of the toughest greens on the planet.[/size]
Cave Nil Vino

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2017, 07:08:37 PM »
Probably weighted significantly toward the second option, given the low costs of capital today.  $15+ million is a staggering amount, though.


I am always surprised by the size of the loans, interest rates and repayments terms that banks will offer to established golf clubs in their towns.


Bob


Bob,


If Mike and Bob were a two man committee for a bank in Augusta, Georgia, the bank would never make money, but we would have a lot of friends :)


On a serious note, I get it. Merion (and Augusta National) is/are the Mother Ship(s), but:





Merion has an opportunity to advance golf similar to Augusta National beyond First Tee and other programs. Last week, I spent a day with the Travis Society and their scholarship is real, genuine, and fun to participate in/with. It's a little niche project that my mentor Bob Huntley would approve of, and GOLF could learn a bunch from Ed Homsey (GCA poster) and the Travis Society:


https://travissociety.com/college-scholarship/







"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2017, 08:35:56 AM »

I thought it was funny enough, but just don't want to risk another Merion Bru Ha Ha. :o

Jeff,

You ignorant Thai-food-eating sl#t.    ;D

Best Regards,
Mike
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:15:42 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2017, 01:04:28 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses.  I don't like to see NLE Golden Age courses.


Sean -- with all due respect, that may be one of the most naive statements I've seen here on GCA.


Of course other courses (and developers of golf courses) look to standard-bearers like Pine Valley and Merion. To suggest that doesn't happen is to be looking at the future of golf course architecture with the most rose-colored of glasses.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2017, 04:56:00 PM »



I thought it was funny enough, but just don't want to risk another Merion Bru Ha Ha. :o

Jeff,

You ignorant Thai-food-eating sl#t.    ;D


Best Regards,
Mike


Having seen you post on FB so many times about being at a Thai restaurant, I can't help but think of you every time I sit down at one.  I think we run neck and neck in how many Thai meals we consume.  We must go at least once a week, average.  Maybe a smidge less, but not much. :(


And, kudos for using one of my favorite SNL lines.  I have used that in industry speeches, still draws a laugh, and the younger generations (the yutes of America) couldn't have seen it live, must be on You Tube.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2017, 07:49:55 PM »
If you aren't footing the bill, why does anyone care how much Merion or PV spend? 


Ciao

Because madness trickles down to lower tier courses.  I don't like to see NLE Golden Age courses.


Sean -- with all due respect, that may be one of the most naive statements I've seen here on GCA.


Of course other courses (and developers of golf courses) look to standard-bearers like Pine Valley and Merion. To suggest that doesn't happen is to be looking at the future of golf course architecture with the most rose-colored of glasses.


Phil


Standard bearers?  Merion already spends a ton...their standard which can be matched by a limited number of clubs was set long ago.  So they decided to join the ranks of Augusta....not at all surprising imo.  You call it naivety...I on the the other hand would say my comments are made with a ton of experience behind them.  Believe me, few people care about the opinions of those with no skin in the game.  Also believe me, its the real world out there and the Merion's of that real world are not beholden to the ideals of others. If a club wants to financially over-extend itself it only has itself to blame...certainly not clubs which can afford to spend like the dickens.  Quite simply...that is life...especially American life. Some folks have money to burn...its always been that way and I dont see that changing anytime soon.   


Instead of worrying about the money, which likely isn't any of your business, focus on the work. Do folks think Merion will be better off?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2017, 08:26:58 PM »
Do folks think Merion will be better off?

Ciao


Yes and no.


I love golf and so do Merion members who contacted me this week.


Slainte.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 08:33:26 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2017, 07:23:16 AM »
    In 18 months, you will again see "the white faces of Merion," and hopefully fewer if any eyebrows.  Sounds good to me.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2017, 07:48:07 AM »
 ;)
[size=78%] [/size]

[size=78%]Pine Valley has been fiddling with the bunkers in front of the second green for many years . Most times it was to attempt to preclude horrible wash outs during thunderstorms that often rumble thru  south jersey in the summer . [/size]

I specifically remember some serious tweaking in the early eighties. When I got to know superintendent Dick Bator and was only a little scared of him ( :-* ) questioned this as they were softened.  Previously at least two of the bunkers were very penal , and escape was not a given.




As to the green being softened , the front left was basically unusable when the greens were firm and fast , which happened more and more when Bator ratcheted up the conditions .  It was a good perhaps necessary change to one of the worlds great greens!


If they take the trees out all along the left of 12 many here will be ecstatic . Praying for the chain saws in this corner .

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2017, 09:45:24 AM »
I've never been to Merion except for the US Open.  It sure looked to me like the best thing they could do is fire up some mowers.  I've said this before, but the USGA setup was crap. They mowed out a 20 yard strip--hit it here or you're screwed, but left a 60 yard wide of fairway with overgrown rough where no sane professional would hit it.  Why not leave that choice to the golfer?  Way more fun.  I honestly think if they would have mowed the fairway corridors out to the edges, it would have been much more interesting.  I hate when the setup people say hit it here or else.  The other sixty yards of fairways were not good choices.  But why tell the golfers that?  Let them decide.  One last comment:  I thought Merion a brilliant Golden Age design (thank you Hugh, or whoever, doesn't matter, they're dead), less the USGA setup.  I hope the members didn't have to play it for long after the Open.  Dreadful.   

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2017, 10:29:53 AM »
For a thread going on 3 pages there is very little info on what exactly is planned for both of these projects.
Does anyone have any details???

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2017, 11:02:15 AM »
For a thread going on 3 pages there is very little info on what exactly is planned for both of these projects.
Does anyone have any details???
Merion is pulling up every blade of grass. Every one. Rebuilding all 18 greens with a form of sub air but apparently the next gen of the system. So everything goes. 11 green is being raised by about 2 feet due to flooding concerns. I have been told they will keep all the nuances of the greens and fairways. So basically a wall to wall regressing. I am assuming drainage on the bunkers will be on the list too. 
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2017, 12:04:05 PM »

I've never been to Merion except for the US Open.  It sure looked to me like the best thing they could do is fire up some mowers.  I've said this before, but the USGA setup was crap. They mowed out a 20 yard strip--hit it here or you're screwed, but left a 60 yard wide of fairway with overgrown rough where no sane professional would hit it.  Why not leave that choice to the golfer?  Way more fun.  I honestly think if they would have mowed the fairway corridors out to the edges, it would have been much more interesting.  I hate when the setup people say hit it here or else.  The other sixty yards of fairways were not good choices.  But why tell the golfers that?  Let them decide.  One last comment:  I thought Merion a brilliant Golden Age design (thank you Hugh, or whoever, doesn't matter, they're dead), less the USGA setup.  I hope the members didn't have to play it for long after the Open.  Dreadful.


Dave, I haven't played Merion in 20 years, but clearly recall it being much harder than Pine Valley, mostly due to that heavy rough, so I think that is a feature of the course that is kept more or less intact, but I could be wrong, and I doubt it is at US Open height every day.  But, from my experience.....kept high enough, or too high, but that's just me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2017, 09:41:09 AM »
Jeff,

I went to he US Open with my son, not a golfer, but who knew that Merion was one of courses I most wanted to see.  I have no clue how the course has been traditionally set up.  Yet, when asked by my son why this was such a great course, I just let my eyeballs respond.  On almost every hole, in my view, the cart path wide fairways were mowed to the most strategic positions.  Those that allowed the best approaches and the most chance of success.  However, it seemed to me that had they mowed the fairways wider, literally to edges, the penalty for hitting to the wrong place would have been severe enough without need for penal rough.  In other words, the deception of a apparently safe landing zones would be much more interesting than a "hit here or else" approach.  I'm just an average Joe golfer, but figuring these things out seems to me one of the great virtues of the game and a key component in an architect's tool kit.       

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2017, 02:22:18 PM »
I think there are one or two nuances/details missing from this discussion. Because Mark introduced the changes to the two courses in a single post, this maybe allowed some to infer that there is some sort of symmetry in terms of the scale/ambition of what both clubs are doing. I don't think this is correct.


One - Merion - is embarking on a very ambitious, expensive and quite controversial project.


The other, Pine Valley, is in the middle of a makeover which did not seem contentious among members i spoke to, and certainly nobody talked about  cost. Also, it is being done broadly within the normal cycle of when the club is (mostly) closed, whereas Merion will close the East course for 18 months (effectively one full season). Among people who belong to both clubs, the talk was all about what was happening at Merion, not Pine Valley.


For what it is worth I agree with Mark's  comments that the changes at Pine Valley are a huge success. They have done a great job at exposing some views and exposing more sand. The only criticism i heard of a GCA nature was that the work done below the 2nd and 18th greens, and to the left of the 5th, is slightly artificial inasmuch as it introduces bunkering whereas originally there was just sand, but not really bunkers. So, by this reasoning, it is an improvement,  but not a  complete return to it roots.


Visually the greatest changes are in the approach to the 2nd; the view of the 3rd, with much more sand now visible; greatest of all, the 5th where there are far fewer trees close to the green. Overall the changes behind the 9th now make it perhaps the most visual hole on the course - perhaps why it is now on the front of the score card.


As for Merion, I think Ed has captured the essence. The project is an overhaul of the greens, not of the course more generally. It is certainly true that the surface (softness) and slightly blotchy appearance of their greens was some way behind that of Pine Valley and Applebrook, the other course we played. But they still putted well. Whether this is a "problem" that requires $15m to remedy, and whether members will feel it a good return on investment is, i guess, a matter of taste and time.


Among those unhappy about the changes, there were two main gripes: one being the cost and need to take on debt. The related concern was that the changes would really only make a difference about four times a year when the course was subject to very heavy rain. The new greens will allow the course to re-open maybe two hours earlier than with existing greens.


The one substantive change that will be made that i have not seen mentioned is that they are going to move the 2nd tee a little bit forward and down the hill, while the green is going to be moved a bit further back.


Although the premise is that the aim is not to change the shape of the greens, a member who had been through a similar experience at Winged Foot was confident that an exercise likes this will necessarily end up introducing more change than is originally intended/disclosed. This was based on the view that the architect is more an artist than an engineer (my words, not his) so some licence/perspective will be introduced along the way.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2017, 08:36:38 PM »
Philip,


That is a very good summary from an outsider UK perspective. I would add:


  • USGA - Merion has a long history of hosting USGA events. That clearly is part of the $15 million equation. Pine Valley has always stood on its own, separate from the USGA machine, and focuses on their internal events and The Crump Cup.
  • Second Club - Pine Valley was/is a second club for members - local, national, and international. Merion was a first club for most members historically. Now they have added many national members (some former/current GCAers), and I am guessing international members. That can be a good thing, but reality is Merion is becoming a club where you "have to bring a game".
Thus, I agree with your basic premise (my interpretation) that the changes at Pine Valley are part of the EVOLUTION at Pine Valley, while the changes at Merion are part of the REVOLUTION at Merion.


Revolutions can be a good thing in life, but IMO, not so much in this conversation about Merion.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2017, 09:30:04 AM »
I see my attempt to interject humor by trying to implicate CBM as a consulting Wedding Planner at Merion sank like the Titanic.   :'(

What a dour group!   ;)


Mike


I appreciated your post and chuckled to my selfie.


This thread has inspired me to book in advance the great 4th green at Royal Dornoch for the wedding of the both of my two female children.  Members of my extended family will be seated in the back bowl and the plebs will have to sit in the dip in front of the green and watch the ceremony on the Jumbotron which will be installed on the path to the back tee of the 5th hole.  The 7 figure rent I will pay to the club will allow them to finally knock down the old clubhouse and build a new one on the ridiculously underutilised 19th century Old Tom Morris 1st fairway of the Struie course.


Maybe you and I can play Merion again after the improvements are complete.  I suspect the 18th will be a driver and a lob wedge given that the current green is an ideal wedding venue....


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
Rihc,


That would be splendid!   


Stupendous idea to bring the wedding theme to Dornoch, as well.


I have also given up and given into technology and got fitted for new Titleist AP3 irons this week. By next year I will be in my sixties so driver wedge should be no problem and we can wave at the Ben Hogan plaque as we pass it by to get to our balls 80 yards further down the fairway. Slainte.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 12:45:18 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2017, 10:11:14 PM »
Is Gil Hanse in charge of the work at Merion?
H.P.S.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2017, 06:09:37 AM »

Is Gil Hanse in charge of the work at Merion?


Correct.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2017, 08:52:58 PM »
I have watched this thread for a few days and just had one question......would TF get a pass if he spent 15 mill on Merion as it seems to be with GH doing so?   While I certainly don't know the specifications of the project, it is not your basic restoration but has to be much more....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matt DeVito

Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2017, 04:14:36 PM »
Any idea what the changes to 12 at PV will be? My guess would be to clear out some of the vegetation short left and make that even more waste area given the other recent changes to 2,5,18 etc.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion and Pine Valley refurbs
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2017, 05:44:37 PM »
Will the money spent at Merion
-lengthen the golf season; and/or
- reduce maintenance costs?


If it is able to make significant improvements to either of these items then it could be money well spent.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

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