Should the caddies have caddies?

[jeffwarne]

Now that the caddies have multiple responsibilities unrelated to actual care of the courses, should they have a "team" to fix and repair divots, ballmarks and rake bunkers.I mean now that they're teachers, psychologists, green map readers, crowd controllers etc...


I'm always amazed that in a televised Tour event late in the day how absolutely littered the fairways are, not only with divot holes, but with full divots and pieces that they have obviously been told not to bother to pick up.


Why wouldn't someone at least pick up the divot pieces?(If you've made the decision not to replace them in the holes)
Looks awful and sets a dreadful example for the viewers on ettiquette.
Just watched an LPGAer take two practice swing divots, then one with the ball-nothing fixed, replaced etc.


Am I crazy? (don't answer that)

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


I've heard that pros would rather hit out of a divot mark, as opposed to off a replaced divot that just been recently replaced.


Given the pros tend to cluster thier divots, as opposed to average players where they are far more randomally dispersed across the fairway, perhaps this is why they don't fix em so they won't have to hit off em the next 3 days....


Just wondering...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Agree you cant repair divots.


Remember Payne Stewart on 16th hole at Olympic Club in 1998?
May have cost him the Open - that and the silly pin on #18 on day 3 when his putt for birdie missed (long I believe) , but then rolled back to his feet.


With all the volunteers at events marking balls (in rough), searching for balls, etc, why not have them also rake bunkers.


That and why the F**K cant these guys use range finders at this point to speed up play?

[jeffwarne]

So we're not fixing divots now...


another tradition of the game out the window.


as to pros preferring to hit of holes, not divots, so be it- but why not pick up the divot and pieces which pose yet another hazard ?


Edit:just saw a caddie go after a divot in South Korea.

[V. Kmetz]

There was a veiled shot somewhere in the two "Now...," (as if caddies weren't those things in a previous era) ***AND another bemoan of tradition lost, but JW has much credit in my account, and without further delay.... to address the authentic topic.


One great thing that comes from viewing the "classic" re-broadcasts is that you notice curious stuff. At the Masters (up until about 1968-69) there were "stationed" caddies at (each/many) greensides, whose only three functions were to A. fix ballmarks once all were on the green; B. to tend or hold the pin off the green (interestingly during some of those 60-67 Masters I've seen, the pin was allowed to be struck by the stroked ball ON the green{??? when did that change } and C. Rake greenside bunkers.


I don't know if the same procedure (maintenance caddie-stewards) existed in the fairways and such, but combined with other glimpses of other old action and different tournaments, I know that at one time this wasn't such an odd concept.


And to honestly address it in the contemporary pro game, it seems a disappointing oversight that the tournament bodies don't have such a person with every group (and/or every hole). I mean what teen volunteer wouldn't rather be doing that, than standard bearing? (A very tedious job, that even adrenaline-filled youth quickly learn is not so glamorous). I mean if the course (and many of the Tour/championship sites do) uses caddies, they can easily hire (for less than a last place check of a 5 million dollar purse after expenses ) 20 - 40 caddies to either go with a group or 2 per hole covering a fairway/green (less the par 3s where only one is needed.


In the same vein, isn't their a Tour official/referee with each group (with roving, [specifically] Rules Committee officials)? I might understand that they don't want THOSE guys' eyes ever off the conduct of play, but I know, even the large local, governing bodies have interns and junior go-fers in ample supply. What better event experience can the youngster have than by watching their elders do their job, as they perform a limited, but necessary, adjunct of maintaining grounds conditions?


In any event, despite KB's unique take (which I can believe), I do wonder why there aren't "stewards" specifically designated to take care off divots, turf, ball bunkers, sand. At a baseball game, the umpire brushes off home plate several times, the crew sweep the field twice and re-lays the batter/catcher boxes once.  The hockey refs put slush in and around the crease several times, and they zamboni the thing twice.


In mentioning that, I'm not trying to be obtuse; I recognize that golf is a unique sport in its largely self-governing ethos and what the local, non-TV traditions are, and what JW is citing as poor visual leadership, if not compromise of a level playing ground for all competitors.... But we're talking the pros here, playing for hundreds of thousands between three shots over 72 holes, not to mention their own achievement and their playing reputations. If we're going to give one expert such glory and treasure for winning and another expert derision and a "choker" label for losing, it's only fair to let them do it their way; and THEIR way is, truly, "fucking leave that divot...talk me through this putt..."


If I'm right on both counts (that's their way AND there's a healthy pool to perform this role) I think it's an excellent idea to create such "Stewards" for immediate course care...


cheers
vk

[Kalen Braley]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... 


If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green, why can't rules be changed so players take relief from temporary ground under repair in the fairway if it lands in a divot?


P.S.  I've heard the line of reasoning about what is and isn't a divot, and how it would be controversial...which I don't buy.  Players do the same with ball marks, figuring out of its a ballmark or just a small bare spot on the green.  To boot, players find divots far less often than they deal with ball marks on the green, so I don't think it would be that difficult to implement timewise.

[Mike Sweeney]

If I'm right on both counts (that's their way AND there's a healthy pool to perform this role) I think it's an excellent idea to create such "Stewards" for immediate course care...


cheers
vk

Maybe I bite if the PGA supports a once a year tournament where there are no caddies. The players carry their own bags similar to NCAA play.


Goodness, maybe our friends at the USGA could even sponsor a event like this...

[jeffwarne]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... 


If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green, why can't rules be changed so players take relief from temporary ground under repair in the fairway if it lands in a divot?


P.S.  I've heard the line of reasoning about what is and isn't a divot, and how it would be controversial...which I don't buy.  Players do the same with ball marks, figuring out of its a ballmark or just a small bare spot on the green.  To boot, players find divots far less often than they deal with ball marks on the green, so I don't think it would be that difficult to implement timewise.

Good logic Kalen, but I disagree.
Playing the ball as it lies is part of the game.
I can't think of a time that a divot has cost me a shot in the past 5 years.(except in a poorly raked bunker-amazing how often the footprints get raked but not the massive splash divot)
These guys only hit wedges and very short irons-no big deal out of a divot.


But you are right that it would not be a big deal to implement timewise or otherwise, and it's the least stupid of most of the new proposals.

[Sean_A]

How bout we think of rules in terms of the average Joe instead of from the pro's PoV?  Folks consistently relate issues of the game to pros when the game isn't about pros at all.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... 


If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green, why can't rules be changed so players take relief from temporary ground under repair in the fairway if it lands in a divot?


P.S.  I've heard the line of reasoning about what is and isn't a divot, and how it would be controversial...which I don't buy.  Players do the same with ball marks, figuring out of its a ballmark or just a small bare spot on the green.  To boot, players find divots far less often than they deal with ball marks on the green, so I don't think it would be that difficult to implement timewise.

No relief from a ball mark so no logic in arguing there should be from a divot. Just repair your divot like you repair your ball mark.

[V. Kmetz]

If I'm right on both counts (that's their way AND there's a healthy pool to perform this role) I think it's an excellent idea to create such "Stewards" for immediate course care...


cheers
vk

Maybe I bite if the PGA supports a once a year tournament where there are no caddies. The players carry their own bags similar to NCAA play.


Goodness, maybe our friends at the USGA could even sponsor a event like this...

But why Mike? Why is the notion of carrying their own bags "at least one time, for show" so valuable as to mitigate your possible agreement about the basic thing - freeing them/their caddies to do what they do best as they wish, while making sure an easily-covered function of sound competition ground is performed...why is that your price, to accept what "is" and adapt to it with one possible idea?


I mean Jordan Spieth and other superb 25-unders JUST finished doing that at NCAA tournaments; when you get to the big leagues, you don't carry your own bags anymore.


I too wish the game (pro and recreational) level would be approached with more humility, less edge-seeking and closer to natural than it is...but it's not, and its not going to revert back to that ethos until it dies and is reborn many, many years from now after we're dead. But JW brought up a subject (if tongue-in-cheek, I ask, "which cheek?") that is noticeable, and given this is the world, so apparently remediable...who cares if the player or his caddie do it, as long as it is done?


At the local level I tell you that its like everything else at the club/the course - the worse the player, the worse the caddie, the less the proper restorative action is taken for divots, ball marks and bunkers. And every Met tournament I've played or caddied in, the players and caddies are scrupulous about the repair work getting done.


cheers
vk

[Pat Burke]

Well, I've caddied for students a bit, and haven't witnessed guys just ignoring divots.
On hybrid bermuda, big divots were replaced, and smaller ones were kicked in.


And I may have the worst luck in the world, but in 2016, I hit it in more divots than I care to think about
in the qualifiers I was playing.  I missed a playoff in NY by a shot (maybe 2...senior memory) and hit it in 3 different divots that round!
Obviously not a tour event, but a couple of those had big impacts on my approach shots


I'm shocked if they aren't fixing divots on tour

[Mike Sweeney]

But why Mike? Why is the notion of carrying their own bags "at least one time, for show" so valuable as to mitigate your possible agreement about the basic thing - freeing them/their caddies to do what they do best as they wish, while making sure an easily-covered function of sound competition ground is performed...why is that your price, to accept what "is" and adapt to it with one possible idea?

Wow, how did you extrapolate that from my answer!! 


I don't disagree with your premise at all. I am saying there is another opportunity for golf.


Does anyone really want to watch the 52nd tournament of the year? Let's add in the fitness element of walking AND carrying your bag to a four day tournament. It also adds/removes a mental element when the pros don't have their caddie/coach there for mental support. Why not have the Tough Mudder PGA Golf Tournament @ Bethpage where entrants have to play The Red and The Black to qualify for the weekend?


Golf is a GREAT fitness activity, but that piece has never been marketed by the governing bodies and there is documentation that walking and carrying is the hardest to score:


https://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/a-little-scientific-research-for-all-those-19th-hole-debates/


For example, in Wolkodoff’s study, golfers scored lower while walking with a caddie or with their clubs on a push cart than they did when using a motorized cart. And golfers carrying a golf bag posted the highest average score.

and then it adds:

What Wolkodoff discovered was that exceeding one’s anaerobic threshold usually went hand in hand with ineffective golf. Think, for example, of someone walking up a steep hill and then having to execute a delicate chip without the two-minute recovery period needed to restore heart and respiratory rates to normal. So being fit cuts strokes.


And maybe we add a shot clock too

[Mike Schott]

Maybe I bite if the PGA supports a once a year tournament where there are no caddies. The players carry their own bags similar to NCAA play.


Goodness, maybe our friends at the USGA could even sponsor a event like this...

I love this idea. They are very fit and should have no trouble carrying their bags. Let them calculate their own yardages and read their own putts. In fact, make them calculate yardages on every shot. No more yardage books, no range finders. What a huge advantage it is for these guys to know their yardage down to the exact yard.

[Kalen Braley]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... 


If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green, why can't rules be changed so players take relief from temporary ground under repair in the fairway if it lands in a divot?


P.S.  I've heard the line of reasoning about what is and isn't a divot, and how it would be controversial...which I don't buy.  Players do the same with ball marks, figuring out of its a ballmark or just a small bare spot on the green.  To boot, players find divots far less often than they deal with ball marks on the green, so I don't think it would be that difficult to implement timewise.

No relief from a ball mark so no logic in arguing there should be from a divot. Just repair your divot like you repair your ball mark.

Jon,


How do you figure?  Tour Players take "relief" from ball marks all the time on the green by being able to repair them.  They are literally altering the field of play for thier next shot.  Whether in the form of a ball mark on thier line to the hole, or even right next to thier ball marker.

[Jon Wiggett]

Karen,


There is no relief taken. Players are repairing damage incurred as set out in the games etiquette. Players should also replace divots.

[Thomas Dai]

As a slight aside, I heard mention recently that next year there’s going to be a European Tour event in which every group, yes every group, will have an official with it and that stopwatches will be used with a 45 sec time limit for each shot after which it’ll be penalty shots imposed.
Anyone else heard about this or can throw more light on the event etc?
Atb

[Carl Johnson]

As a slight aside, I heard mention recently that next year there’s going to be a European Tour event in which every group, yes every group, will have an official with it and that stopwatches will be used with a 45 sec time limit for each shot after which it’ll be penalty shots imposed.
Anyone else heard about this or can throw more light on the event etc?
Atb

Haven't heard of this, but an honest to goodness "shot clock" -- for every shot (no carryovers) including putts -- I like it.

[Jim Lipstate]

I live in the deep South and our courses are almost exclusively bermuda fairways. Can't really replace bermuda divots. They will not grow back so I fill in my divots with sand provided by the course. I use a motorized caddy or push cart so no big deal carrying around a jug of sand. I don't think I would carry sand if I was carrying my bag. Too much extra weight. I try to fill in other divots along the way and never finish the round with any sand left in the jug in the vain hope that if I am nice to the course it will be nice to me in return.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I don't think I would carry sand if I was carrying my bag. Too much extra weight.

I guess I don't understand this statement.  The beverage pouch on carry/stand bags can be used for sand.  That's what we do at my club.  I can't imagine not doing so because of a concern about weight.

[Laz Versalles]

Maybe I bite if the PGA supports a once a year tournament where there are no caddies. The players carry their own bags similar to NCAA play.


Goodness, maybe our friends at the USGA could even sponsor a event like this...



Similar, but a lot of NCAA players use a push cart. Stanford players are all using them. It's a weird look but any advantage matters I guess.

[Laz Versalles]

Replacing a bentgrass divot is pretty rudimentary, but filling a Bermuda fairway divot with sand seems to be a lost art form. Sometimes you get a light dusting of sand and other times you see people pour mole hills over there old divots.


To answer OP- yes, caddies need caddies. Something along the lines of ball boys in tennis. Their task is simple: collect sod, fill hole, stomp, run back behind the ropes.

[Carl Johnson]

Replacing a bentgrass divot is pretty rudimentary, but filling a Bermuda fairway divot with sand seems to be a lost art form. Sometimes you get a light dusting of sand and other times you see people pour mole hills over there old divots.

Agreed.  You have to care, and even at my private club very few members do.  And as aside, how many folks fill divots (Bermuda) they create in their short game practice area?  Sad, very sad.

[Ben Sims]

In 2012 Masters, I was shocked at how many divots were left on the fairways. Not so much a big deal on holes like 11 where they tend to spray it all over hells half acre trying to get it as far down the hole as possible. But on 10, where a large percentage of tee balls end up in the same spot, it was comical how many beaver pelts were down there.


Combine that experience with Chambers Bay in 2015 and one thing regarding professional tournament caddies and course care is clear--they aren't worried about it.

[Niall C]

I come from a golfing culture where we don’t have caddies, or at least the natives don’t use caddies and caddies tend to be used by tourists only. Consequently repairing your own divots and pitchmarks as well as raking the bunkers is a given. If you can do that while toting your own bag then why can’t you do it when someone else is carrying it ?
 
At the end of the day the player is responsible so if he can’t trust his caddy to do the necessary repairs he should be prepared and be obliged to do it himself. Or is that too straightforward ?! 
 
Niall