Best Biarritz

[Jim Hoak]

Your opinion on an argument--Where is the best rendition of a Biarritz feature on a hole, other than maybe the original?
Two suggestions--Yale or Fox Chapel?  Others?
At Chicago Golf, the Biarritz is off the green.  Should that count?
Have others than MacDonald or Raynor done them extensively?  Are they a good feature or just a historical novelty?

[Rick Lane]

I believe Piping Rocks is also off the green?   CC of Fairfield has a "former" Biarritz in the middle of what is now the 10th Fairway.   Bummer that they redesigned that away at some point, but the ground feature is still there plain as day.   

I have not played a lot of them, but Yale's sure is impressive....

[Steve Lapper]

  There is no single "best' Biarritz.


  Most scenic: Whippoorwill #8,


  Most effective Non-par 3: Somerset Hills #13


  Most Difficult: Fishers Island #5


Always Great: Yale, The Creek Club, North Berwick, Fox Chapel, Tamarack, Yeamans Hall,  Camargo, Piping Rock, Mid-Ocean, Black Creek, Mountain Lake, Shoreacres, North Shore...like I sad, there is NO single Best one.

[Eric LeFante]

Interesting thread where the argument is made that 17 at Forsgate is the best Biarritz green in golf:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59352.0.html

[Brian Finn]

Those holes where the green begins at the swale (i.e. the front portion is not green) should absolutely be included.  While I prefer the all green versions in most cases, it is not a requirement.

My personal favorite is Fox Chapel.  It's the best example of how I feel a Biarritz should look and play.  I also love The Creek, Fishers Island, and Yale.  I've heard great things about the recently restored(?) version at Southampton, but haven't played there since the new green opened.

Coore & Crenshaw did a Biarritz on Streamsong Red.  It's a very interesting interpretation, which I happen to like.

[Rick Lane]

Fun web link here that lets you compare current aerials to 1934:

http://magic.lib.uconn.edu/mash_up/1934.html

Type in "Sasco Hill Road, Southport", and you can see the original Biarritz at CC Fairfield, and the 10th hole today, (in addition to lots of other changes to the original Raynor layout)

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Not sure about best, but the most difficult one I've seen is at The Creek, where it is also an island green.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

My vote is for Yale... it has to be the most dramatic inland par-3 I've seen, and one of the most dramatic par-3s anywhere.


Besides the 13th at Somerset Hills and 16th at North Berwick, what are some other par-4's featuring a biarritz green?

[Bill Brightly]

I agree with Ted: Yale is the best that I have played, followed closely by The Creek. Both tee shots scare the crap out of you!


Charles Banks built really good ones at Forsgate, Tamarack and my course: Hackensack.


But when Ted mentions the 16th at North Berwick, I think we need to pause and make the distinction between a Biarritz HOLE and a Biarritz-style green. The HOLE is a long par three with a deep swale in front of the putting surface, and the approach is guarded by bunkers (or water at The Creek) on both sides, and matching bunkers on both sides of the putting surface.


Most Biarritz holes did not have the approach designed as putting surface. That is a change that many clubs are going with and I like this. What better way to make an approach really fast and firm? But the pin should NEVER be up front, in my humble opinion.


The 16th at N.B. is a great green with a deep swale but it is NOT a Biarritz hole. I think the trend to maintain Biarritz holes as a two-sectioned green is now causing us to call all greens with horizontal swales bisecting the green a Biarritz. That's fine, but also misleading unless we say Biarritz-style green.


Lastly, to answer Jim's original question, the Biarritz par 3 is largely a historic novelty because the golf ball goes too far in the air. Most good players simply fly the swale. So at my club, and I assume all others with Biarritz par threes, only the senior and women golfers are actually paying the hole as C.B. Macdonald envisioned: a hole that required a low running tee shot that runs down the swale and hopefully back up the swale to the putting surface. I can tell you this: people playing the hole this way have a lot more fun!

[Jon Wiggett]

Bill,


well said. Of course, the main reason the 16th at NB is not a Biarritz is because it pre-dates the original Biarritz by quite a few years. Maybe greens with a swale bisecting them should be called a 'Cartgate'


Jon

[Sven Nilsen]

Since we all seem to have forgotten, here's the origination story for the Biarritz template. 

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:
"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection." 
CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:
"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."
H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz: 
"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

[John Connolly]

Should then the "hog's back" portion be higher than the putting surface, or at least have an "apex" to it? I've only played two of them but by my recollection for each was that the sections separated by the swale where both flat and of equal, or near-equal, height.

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks for posting that, Sven.


It seems that the "hogsback" feature was lost as Raynor and Banks began to build their own versions. They built the swale and the hazards along the approach, but not a hogsback. Would you agree?


Also, do you have any information on The Creek? Was the front section always putting surface? I doubt it.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Since all the Macdonald-Raynor Biarritz holes began with green only after the swale, for me the that retain the original intent are the best. Fishers with two prominent spines on the plateau before the intended green, architecturally is the most appealing to me since the front portion is mowed at approach height.


Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

About the only great one is Yale.  I'm not sure there are any of the others that I'd be happy to have as part of my next new course.

[Tim Martin]

I like Yale but for the hole and concept to really shine the pin placement needs to be on the back tier.

[Joe Bausch]

About the only great one is Yale.  I'm not sure there are any of the others that I'd be happy to have as part of my next new course.

Which tees up the follow-up question:  why do you like Yale's so much, Tom?

[Joe Bausch]

Recently I played a course with a 'baby Biarritz' green, the par 3 18th hole at South Fork Country Club on Long Island. 

Tee view:



Two greenside views:





Playing a bit downhill and 223 yards from the back tee, I really liked it.

[Dean Paolucci]

I submit the 13th at The Knoll.  248 yards from the back tee.  Pictures please.

[Josh Tarble]

I think the only one I've ever played that I liked was Fishers Island.  Every other one (including Yale) made me wish there was some other template in it's place.  I think the biarritz, while unique, is the worst of any of the template style par 3s. 

[Joe Bausch]

My favorite Biarritz on a par 5 is the 15th hole at Glen Mills (Bobby Weed design) just outside of Philadelphia.  What follows is a view from about 150 yards out, then two greenside looks:

[Joe Bausch]

I think the only one I've ever played that I liked was Fishers Island.  Every other one (including Yale) made me wish there was some other template in it's place.  I think the biarritz, while unique, is the worst of any of the template style par 3s.

The one at Fishers Island is pretty tasty:

[Sven Nilsen]

The problem with the Biarritz template today (and probably the reason many don't like (or appreciate) the concept) is that the modern game has pretty much made obsolete the way in which CBM intended the hole to be played.  As with all of his template concepts, you have to remember that he was trying to test a variety of shots over the course of a round, believing that the ideal course was going to demand well-rounded skill from the golfer.


Just as the Short hole demands a very precise lofted shot to a specific portion of the green, the Biarritz demanded a long running approach that would hold its line, and would be struck so that the run out would traverse the "hogsback" and feed to the green itself.  These terms have all become a bit muddled, as Raynor and Banks later started grassing the front portion (the hogsback) as green, perhaps in an effort to enable the run out aspect of the shot.


Today, many players are flying their shots well past the hogsback, and when pinned in the front are even stopping their shots on that section.  In this way, CBM's intent has been lost, as that manner of play has made the long running shot unnecessary.  It is of interest to note that the player that doesn't have that long carry shot is staying true to the hole's intent when they are able to judge the bounce and run shot correctly.


It would be nice to think that the Biarritz template intent could be made relevant today if the length of those holes could be adjusted to modern distances.  A 200 yard Biarritz in 1920 would probably need another 60 or 70 yards to make it relevant for today's better players, and the course would need to be maintained firm enough to allow for the roll.


In short, anytime you step up to a "Biarritz Style" hole, or a hole with a "Biarritz Style" green, and you are not trying to run the ball to the hole location, you are not playing a Biarritz as CBM intended it.

[Bill Crane]

Yale's Biarritz 9th kills all the others mentioned here due to the scale, setting and visual effect.   It also has the deepest trench of the all the Biarritz "style" greens that I have actually played - it must be over 6 feet deep.


Somerset Hills has the most severe slope on the front.   Whipporwill's is framed nicely, as is the one at Forsgate.


I also prefer the one at Yeamans Hall that is often firm enough to actually run the ball toward the back plateau if hit soundly. Likewise with the 16th green at North Berwick, which is slanted to the left so that the forward green plateau is visually to the right of the rear plateau.   I hit what I still believe was one of my best conceived and executed shots ever - by hitting a lower lofted wedge than needed onto the left section of the forward plateau that chased forward through the trench and finished 11 feet from the pin on the back plateau.


By the way, surprisingly, Morgan Hill in Easton,Pa. has a slanted right Biarritz style green on the par 3 third hole. This Kelly Blake Moran design has some surprisingly interesting features, but really should have been about a 14 hole course since there are at least 4 or more holes on land so severe as to be ridiculous.   Just not a walkable track.

[BCrosby]

Well said Sven.

I've played five or six Biarritz holes, but I need some help with the "hogsback" feature. Of the holes I have played none has a hogsback, at least as I understand the term.

In each case the approach to the back tier putting surface (whether the approach is cut at green height or not) is relatively flat. As at Yale. I don't see a rounded, convex landform, which is what I take "hogsback" to mean.

Do the Biarritz's I've played violate CBM's template formula or am I missing something obvious?

(For what it's worth, the Biarritz is my least favorite template hole. I don't think its even a very good hole, a view I'd guess others share since it is the least copied of the CBM templates. But that's a discussion for another thread.)

Bob