[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

On page 45 of The Evangelist of Golf, discussing Raynor's Prize Dogleg, part of the description reads "A Seth Raynor rendition combines two entries in the Country Life magazine design contest."

It later reads, "Sadly, it appears no unaltered difficult versions remain. Memberships unable to appreciate strategic excellence of design filled in most fairway bunkers—negating the design strategy."

Two questions: does anyone know unequivocally which two holes were combined? I'm not looking for suppositions, but writing by Raynor or Banks that states which two holes were used.

Also, does anyone know of examples of fairway bunkering on a Raynor's Prize Dogleg being filled in?

The Country Life contest ran in 1914. The British publication asked for unique hole designs with American Charles Blair Macdonald paying cash prizes for the top three submissions. Some think he did this in order to find interesting designs for the forthcoming Lido course (NLE) on Long Island. Alister Mackenzie won and a variation of his work was used at Lido. A.W. Edmondson finished second. David Maciver finished third. The announcement along with the drawings appeared in the August 1 issue.

In the issue following the announcement of the winners, a design by J.C. Walsham and one by the team of T.C. Chorley and L. Kingston Adams were shown.

[Jason Topp]

Tony - Here is a blog on a plan to restore such a hole in Minnesota.

https://raynorrevealed.blog/2017/06/26/mvcc-13-a-rare-prize-recovered/

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Thank you for posting that.

I can find no record of Raynor at Minnesota Valley and have my doubts about it being one of his designs.

Mr. Bahto seems to have interpreted Raynor's Prize Dogleg in a way different than at least one example. The ninth at Ocean Links, from two aerials I have seen, is nothing like what was portrayed in Evangelist. Tim Gerrish's drawing in To the Nines is much closer to what was there. At the time he made the drawing only one of the Raynor Prize Dogleg aerials was known to exist. The second one confirms what Tim created with some flight variations.

[Jason Topp]

Thank you for posting that.

I can find no record of Raynor at Minnesota Valley and have my doubts about it being one of his designs.

Interesting.  I will take a look at Rick's book to see what he has.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:  if you are looking for a detailed description by Raynor personally of any design, I don't think you're going to find much.  He was very quick to tell newspapermen that a certain hole was based on the 5th at Garden City or whatever, but he rarely gave any detail as to what parts would be the same or different.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom, thanks for your reply. I'm just trying to figure out where George came up with the idea that it contained the combination of two holes from the contest. I can find no reference to that anywhere other than the Evangelist. I want to corroborate what he wrote before repeating it.


Best,


Tony

[Jim_Kennedy]

For context (if anyone is unfamiliar), an exchange between George and TMac

George,
Is 'Raynor's Prized Dog-Leg' the second place winner pictured in Scotland's Gift?

"Tom,
I believe it was an adaptation that, yes.

The key to the hole at Lido was that in order to reach the green in two, you had to hit blind over a sandhill right in front of you, this at the inside corner of the dogleg, but worse, the rest of the shot was over the sandy wastes of Lido's off-fairway to a green that was at a most difficult angle and bunkered well (this can still be seen at W'hamp, if the alternate fairway, now gone, could be pictured as originally built) ..... sorry, if that sounds confusing - it was a complex hole I would love to build as was built at Lido

(whooops, there goes everyone to the drawing board .......    hurry guys, you can call it "your original" design :-)  ....  "hey this Raynor guy was pretty good after all" 

Compounding the problem was that there was a huge waste area before the green that everyone had to contend with.

You said, "Tom Simpson did not enter the contest because his partner, Herbert Fowler, was a judge". ... he actually did submit but disqualified himself - they published it because the design was so good .......   I'm not sure  "it was worth comparing with MacKenzie's" was what it was about Tom.  It was just another really good hole - I think I have six of the entries around here in the files.

The second, third and another winner by a man named Walsham were pretty similar to the Rayor P-DL adaptation. I think Walsham's was the one that Raynor drew from ......  in the Walsham drawing with a compulsory carry short of the green was drawn as "Hills with Sand Pockets" which the judges criticized as a blind-shot problem - I think Seth moderated that to a flat waste area and used that for his version.

The judges, Darwin, Hutchson and Fowler, said there were 5 or 6 entries that were just about as good as the winner(s).

The Channel hole was far and away the best hole on a course with many great holes.

Incidently, for all you "diagonal risk/reward" fans of the Cape hole, the Cape at Lido was 378-yards - NO diagonal carry off the tee, and like the Cape at Fishers Island, the second shot carry was over hazard and the green which jutted out into the sandy wastland of Lido's off-fairway.

[Anthony Gholz]

Anthony:


Midland Hills St Paul (Whitten 1915) maybe a mis understanding re name?


Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Thanks Anthony, I'll look into that.


Is the ninth at Ocean Links the only hole ever named Raynor's Prize Dogleg?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jim:


So in the exchange you posted above Raynor's Prize Dogleg, Tom asserts it is not a combination of two holes from the contest, but a variation of one hole, which is counter to what Bahto wrote.


Just want to be clear.


Anthony

[Bret Lawrence]

Tony,


There are several holes named Raynor's Prize Dogleg today, but I am not sure how many were originally named this.  Some of the confusion of this hole comes from the stories printed around the time Ocean Links opened.  Was this hole called the "Prize" because Seth Raynor won a prize for a contest to design the ninth hole at Ocean Links?  Or was this hole called the "Prize", because the hole was based off of a design from the Country Life contest? 


I have seen several accounts of the new course at Ocean Links and two of the stories say Raynor won a prize for a competition by Tailer, while other stories mention he won a prize in a famous competition a few years back.  We know he didn't win a prize in the Country Life contest, so are you aware of Tailer having a competition to design the final hole at Ocean Links?  Or were all these articles missing some piece of information.


The 6th hole at Lido was a 493 yard Par 5.  Raynor's Prize Dogleg at Ocean Links was a Par 4.  If the Ocean Links hole was designed after the 6th at Lido, why didn't they mention it on the most detailed scorecard ever produced?  They had no problem mentioning the inspiration for their other holes.


If Raynor's Prize Dogleg was designed after the 6th at Lido it would have most likely had a reversed Road Hole green. Macdonald stated in his July 1915 Golf Illustrated article about the Lido course: "The sixth hole has many features of the seventeenth at St. Andrews in Scotland.  The green is a replica of that green reversed, approaching from the left instead of from the right.  The hole also is of the elbow type.  The undulations and bunkering are so arranged as to give the long player a great advantage.  On the second shot there is a large and important bunker to carry."


The 15th at Yeamans Hall was modeled after the 6th at Lido according to Raynor's 1925 letter to the club.  In the letter Raynor mentions: "No. 15 is like the 6th at Lido, this hole being a copy of one of the holes taking first awards at the time Mr. Macdonald offered prizes for the best designed two shot holes."


Whether Ocean Links 9th hole was based on Lido's 6th, I can't say I have ever seen a reference to that.  However,  from the quotes of Macdonald and Raynor, the 6th hole at Lido would appear to have included the body of a prize winning submission and a green similar to the 17th at St. Andrews, but reversed.


As for your question regarding courses filling in their fairway bunkers on Raynor's Prize Dogleg's.  I do have one example:  Ocean Links


Bret

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

What's interesting about the 9th at Ocean Links is that there is no advantage to taking the tee shot to the indie for all but the longest hitters. The group of three bunkers, except for the lucky player that could place a shot amidst them, seemed to seal off that route. Taking the tee shot to the outside of dogleg, resulted in a long but unencumbered shot into the green with a clear view of the target. From the aerials I've seen, it does not appear that the green is of the Reverse Road Hole variety, although there is a greenside bunker right, and another short left.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Good luck 


TMac thought it was from Simpson's entry, this was in 2002. Earlier in the conversation George posited the 15th as the Simpson entry.

CBM said (in SG) that he didn't use any of the other holes from the CL contest in toto when he built Lido.

Both GeorgeB and TomD have the Walsham entry as the inspiration for RPD.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The Walsham design seems to fit with the Ocean Links hole. Taking the tee shot to the inside of the dogleg leaves an approach over the bunker guarding the green, unless the shot is played with a hard left-to-right bend. The play is out to the left, the long route. Walsham's design is improved upon since the green can be seen from that angle.


By the way, in the 1928 Gold Mashie Tournament sponsored by the course's founder T. Suffern Tailer, George Von Elm shot 272 for 72 holes (8 times around the layout) besting second place by 21 shots and tying the lowest competitive round ever in the history of golf. He played Raynor's Prize Dogleg in -1, with a birdie on the final hole of the tournament. There were eight competitors including Tailer's son, Tommy, who had a find amateur career.

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