[John Kavanaugh]

what's the point? It feels like something the ladies have tolerated for years.

[Nigel Islam]

Old Elm and Kapalua are pretty solid. I'm good with it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Old Elm is interesting. <6500yds par 73. What happened?

[Tom_Doak]

Old Elm is for old men.  There are a lot of those type courses that still called everything over 450 yards a par 5.  Most of them are ratcheting back par these days without changing the holes in question.


There were nine par-73 courses in the GOLF Magazine top 100 list the first time I worked on it; the majority of them like Garden City and NGLA and Kingston Heath had only three par-3 holes which is rare in modern design.


A few designers are especially fond of par 5 holes and want to build more than four par 5's.  I did that once at Black Forest but have not done it again.  I like my par 4 holes best!

[Jim Nugent]

Par 73 means more par 5s than par 3s (assuming no par 6s).  Generally that makes the course harder for average golfers.
 Seems pretty rare these days, though maybe for some sites it's the best solution, just as two par 3s in a row (or four in ten holes) sometimes works best. 

Didn't NGLA used to be par 73?  What about TOC when the Road Hole was a par 5? 

[BCowan]

Sylvania cc had 7 par 5s originally.  WPJ was exceptional with his par 5s imo.  He had many courses with 5 par 5s and 5 par 3s.


Tom,


What do u think of Old Elm? 

[Terry Lavin]

Funny, but I’ve played Old Elm five times and I never noticed that it’s a par 73. It certainly was an old guys course before Drew Rogers and Dave Zinkand dolled it up. They did a combo of the following:

1.  Thoughtful tree removal.
2. Restoration, relocation and /or redesigning the bunkers.
3. Building some remote back tees.
4. Pond removal.
5. They combined two greens.
6. Removal of all rough grass around greens and at the entrances to fairway bunkers.


The last item is a gamechanger for what used to be sort of a dull exercise. I’m playing there Wednesday and will chat up the super to see if I’ve missed anything. Also, I took Cavalier out there one day and maybe he can post the photos.


I think the result is terrific, but I’m not sure it gets to a Doak 7. Others here have disagreed with that assessment but the before and after is both fun and occasionally dramatic.  That much is not really debatable.

[John Connolly]

Minikahda in Minneapolis is a 73. Hard to have more fun anywhere.

[PCCraig]

Minikahda in Minneapolis is a 73. Hard to have more fun anywhere.

There are quite a few par 73 courses in Minnesota, for whatever reason. In addition to Minikahda, Raynor designed Minnesota Valley, Golden Valley and Interlachen are all 73.

[Phil McDade]

The best, totally unknown, under-the-radar good course in Wisconsin -- Big Foot CC, by Bendelow, dating back to 1924, and not far from the old money summer resort town of Lake Geneva -- is a par 73. As Tom mentions, it's got short par 5s -- holes #1 and #2 are 489 and 491 par 5s, and there is a back-nine par 5 that tips out at 461 yds. From the tips, Big Foot has all of three par 4s that are longer than 400 yards, which has to be a record of some kind for paucity of 400+ yard par 4s on a course. (Five par 5s, 4 par 3s, and 9 par 4s -- six of them under 400 yards.)

[Rich Goodale]

"Par" for almost all of us (including me and JakaB) is 80+,  Get over it.

[John Kavanaugh]

My Mom (RIP) was an avid golfer who spent her entire life hoping one day to break 50 for nine holes. We played a nine hole course that was par 36 for men while being par 38 for women. In simple terms, the men that ran the club were too lazy or cheap to build an extra set of tees for the ladies so they decried a long par three to be a par 4 and a difficult par 4 a five for the ladies. My Mom, she hated the term Mother, never got to break 50 because of this simplistic design error. When I see a par 73 I can't help but wonder who got either lazy or cheap.


In defense of these older courses that were opened as par 73's this was nothing more than elastic design. Everyone could see that equipment technology was on the uprise and sooner rather than later par would be reduced to a more reasonable number. The great news is that on most courses we still have a couple of strokes to go before we hit the floor of 70.

[Eric LeFante]

I think less than four par 3s is not enough and more than four par 5s is too many so I'm not a fan

[Eric_Terhorst]

John,


"Par" is 74 for the ladies at North Berwick, with 6 par 5s including #17, on which the ladies at 417 yds tee off behind the men playing a par 4 at 405 yds.


Does North Berwick need some forward tee boxes?

[Jim Franklin]

Par is 75 for the ladies at Five Farms.

[John Kavanaugh]

Eric,


I believe that every golfer regardless of sex should have an equal opportunity to shoot a career round at a given course. North Berwick has been around a long time. Maybe it's time for a change.


The course that Mom played has since built up tees on every hole. The old men love em more than the women they were built for.

[John Kavanaugh]

Par is 75 for the ladies at Five Farms.

I used to get out of bed just in case I broke 70 for the day. If I would have been mandated to shoot 6 under for the pleasure I may have hit the snooze.

[Jeff Shelman]

My club has six par 5s and five par 3s. Par 73.

[Tom_Doak]

I think less than four par 3s is not enough and more than four par 5s is too many so I'm not a fan

So should everyone conform to your arbitrary, narrow view?


Only a very stubborn person would walk off NGLA or Kingston Heath and say they missed having another par 3 hole.

[Thomas Dai]

I think less than four par 3s is not enough and more than four par 5s is too many so I'm not a fan

TOC = 2 par-3's & 2 par-5's
I quite like the 6-6-6 version....although devils to play.
atb

[Steve Wilson]

My favorite course here in West Virginia isn't but ought to be a 73.  The 13th at 465 yards up a gradual slope through soft turf to an elevated green plays harder than it's par 5 510 yard neighbor which plays gradually downhill.  Only hole I never managed to birdie (eagle) on the course in what must be nearly a thousand plays.


Next year when I move to the senior tees, the course will feel more like a 72. 

[Sean_A]

I think less than four par 3s is not enough and more than four par 5s is too many so I'm not a fan

So should everyone conform to your arbitrary, narrow view?


Only a very stubborn person would walk off NGLA or Kingston Heath and say they missed having another par 3 hole.

I think Eric is saying less than four 3s is not ideal, if so, I would agree.  I don't see many archies striving for less than four 3s.  Hell, I think five 3s is even better.  To me, in theory, TOC would be a better course if the first six holes were broken up with a short hole. 


Ciao

[BCowan]

I'd like to see Doak do a par 73 with 7 par 5s and 6 par 3s.  40 bunkers max.

[Kalen Braley]

I think less than four par 3s is not enough and more than four par 5s is too many so I'm not a fan

TOC = 2 par-3's & 2 par-5's
I quite like the 6-6-6 version....although devils to play.
atb

Thomas,


I agree here.  Wouldn't 6-6-6 provide the most amount of variety, at least on paper?  I love playing par 5s personally!

[Curtis Woods]

Old Elm is for old men.  There are a lot of those type courses that still called everything over 450 yards a par 5.  Most of them are ratcheting back par these days without changing the holes in question.


And you, some day, will also be an "old man" like some of the rest of us. 


A few designers are especially fond of par 5 holes and want to build more than four par 5's.  I did that once at Black Forest but have not done it again.  I like my par 4 holes best!
[/quote]

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()