Goin' low on the Old Course in the final round of the Dunhill

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,


Thats exactly why I don't buy the "better fitness" or "better teachers" line.


Sure they have improved things a bit, but Freddie hasn't changed his swing one bit, (At least from what I can tell when I studied it for a few years, as I tried to emulate it when I was younger.)


To gain an extra 30-40 yards, all with a bad back and a declining set of muscles that goes along with age...


 

[Jim Nugent]

I wonder if the long ball turns off most pro golf fans, or turns them on?  My guess is the latter.  They probably like seeing DJ send his tee shots into orbit, and have wedges into 480 yard par 4s.  If so, the nuances of golf architecture don't mean much to them, and the ruling bodies of golf have little incentive to put the brakes on tournament technology: their market is doing fine.

Even if the USGA, or R&A or PGA Tour do require a tournament ball some day, they can only enforce it for their events.  I bet the masses of golfers, who don't play tournament golf, will still want the latest/greatest long-ball equipment there is, and the manufacturers will be more than glad to make it for them. 

Kalen -- the sports you noted are all team sports.  Everyone on the field uses the same ball.  Golf is individual.  Each player uses his own golf balls.  It makes sense they will want balls that fit their particular swings, strengths and body types.  Is bowling maybe like that?   

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,


A few points here:


 I don't know if we could call bowling a major sport, but yes they do use their own balls.  That being said there isn't much variance between venues other than lane quickness and oil patterns...


Other sports were more "individualized" before the leagues took over.


- Football being the glaring example, kickers often had thier own balls just for kicks and some QBs used thier own methods to gain advantage! 


 - Baseball teams used to manage their own balls as well.  Some would soak em in water to deaden them, others would bake them to make em harder before the league stepped in.


- Even the NBA has tinkered with composite balls that all the lower leagues (college, high school) use, before going back to the all leather ones.

On a higher level philisophical view, all professional atheletes have to make various changes and adjustments when going to the pro version of thier sport, so going to a new ball for golf wouldn't be anything new or unique.  With so many advantages, and so few disadvantages, I'm partially surprised they haven't already done so.

[Dave McCollum]

Jim,
You are entirely correct with your view of things.  Regulate the game for pro golfers on tournament courses.  Let the rest of us pathetic amateurs playing recreational golf enjoy it as much as possible. Bifurcation, who cares?, only the USDA could come up with such a word.  Those commenting on slippery slope issues are all industry participants, and as such, are vested interests.  For the record, I think Jeff Warne is one of our most intelligent voices,  I just happen to disagree with him on this issue.  Sorry, it happens.   

[Niall C]

Jeff


In fairness, what I said was that to an extent you can measure yourself up to a Tiger/Rory. I was allowing for differing conditions/tees, customised clubs etc however what I said basically holds true. Any punter can buy Rory’s clubs (minus any tweaks) even if they don’t suit his/her swing.


Why exactly is that(a punter buying Rory's clubs) more important than trashing sustainability, tradition,common sense, $$$, and so many great old courses?

I never said it was but I think it is an important aspect of golf that should be retained. Call it tradition if you want . With regards to tradition, see the point I was making below. The game has always evolved.

As for making obsolete the great courses, there has been continual improvement in equipment since Old Tom was a boy, including by Old Tom as I think I said at the start of this thread. During that time courses have changed/adapted and I think it fair to say both the game and those courses wouldn’t be as good or as much fun now if that continual improvement hadn’t happened. Certainly the courses you now venerate wouldn’t be what they are.


100% true, but at what cost to sustainability, common sense, time spent playing, cost etc.
Not all changes have been for the better-especially the new modern monstrocities

You have me there. I've played precious few courses built in the last 15/20 years. Of those built in Scotland I've probably played all apart from the new Ardfin course. It strikes me that they are all, with the possible exception of Renaissance, of a much larger scale and I don't really put that down to length although length does contribute. Far bigger reasons as far as I can see are green to tee walks, excessive width, and the apparent ideal of creating views and individual hole corridors. Width I think is the biggest issue. It's why I'm not the biggest fan of KB and in particular CS. What those courses say is flail away with your driver you'll be OK. 

Now, I say that as a 50 something who first swung a club before reaching school age. I honestly don’t have much nostalgia for the cut down hickories I started with or the wafer thin blades I graduated to (relatively speaking all clubs back then seemed to be bladed) and can honestly say that if not for the improvement in the equipment there’s a very good chance I wouldn’t still be playing this game that I’ve grown to love.


I don't believe that for a second. You fell in love then ,not after Great Big Bertha was hatched

You've had the dubious pleasure of seeing me play golf and I think you'll agree I'm not a natural. I was a far better footballer growing up and also played rugby until I was thirty. During that time I played golf sporadically and even gave it up for a couple of years in my 20's. It was only when injuries stopped me playing football and rugby that I started playing golf again. The fact I started playing golf on a regular basis rather than taking up tennis, bowls or whatever, was down to having been introduced to the sport before and the fact that I could now (mis)hit a ball without an electric shock going up my arm. So trust me when I say, it wasn't love at first sight when it came to golf.

Let me finish this bit by saying that I do see the irony in me arguing against rolling back technology and you in favour of that when it's me who is still playing the ping eye 2's and you've moved on to something "better".
And I certainly do love this game. And I’m looking forward to the days, assuming I live long enough, that I get to overpower a course with my drives and wedge play due to the improvements in technology  


Bifurcation won't change that in the least

You might be right but then that wasn't my argument against bifurcation.

Niall

As Kalen notes, every other professional sport has a ball NOT PICKED by the player.


There are many, many more intelligent people on this board who can bury me with their wit, debate skills, and logic.
There are of course many good arguments for not bifurcating.


The best, most logical argument is "restore to what era" My answer is where the best players are challenged hitting a variety of clubs from the current back tees at most classic courses(to reduce retrofitting costs). But that is a slippery slope with a lot of variables.


I'll leave you with this. Fred Couples at age 22 drove the ball an average of 268 yards. At age 49, despite a career with a chronic bad back, he was at 298.
I'd say a 10% rollback would be about right if you believe Fred is miraculously in the same condition at 22 as he was at 49.
Now at age 57, he's driving it 296 so he is slipping-or maybe the equipment is getting worse.


That all pales compared to a regular tour event though where 350 is the new 300.

[jeffwarne]

Niall,
Those Eye 2's ARE the best irons ever invented.(other brands will go farther due to jacked lofts, but there's no better iron)
Anecdotally, the newest Callaway Epic 4 iron has the same loft as my old PING 1 iron=18 degrees!!!


And bifurcation IS for real when you find out your irons are illegal in 2024.
Actually, I guess we WON'T be bifurcated then and you'll get your wish of using the same equipment as the best players-but in this case it will be you that will have the equipment pulled!
The 2010 groove rule grandfathered in square grooves until then for amateur play-sadly, that rule took my Eye 2 wedges away when nearly all Golf associations decided to adopt it as a local rule in competition-bifurcation.(I hardly had a groove left but loved the bounce, sole and design-which no one has come close to replicating-even PING with their lame copy of their own club).


So you're going to lose your beloved irons for competitions and Rory will be hitting it 15-20 yards farther again with 7 more years of new rule stretching -R&D outspending (of the R&A)---- -see where I'm going

[Niall C]

I tend to think all that Rory needs to hit it 15-20 yards by me is his putter !

Niall

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,


A few points here:


 I don't know if we could call bowling a major sport, but yes they do use their own balls.  That being said there isn't much variance between venues other than lane quickness and oil patterns...


Other sports were more "individualized" before the leagues took over.


- Football being the glaring example, kickers often had thier own balls just for kicks and some QBs used thier own methods to gain advantage! 


 - Baseball teams used to manage their own balls as well.  Some would soak em in water to deaden them, others would bake them to make em harder before the league stepped in.


- Even the NBA has tinkered with composite balls that all the lower leagues (college, high school) use, before going back to the all leather ones.

I thought the golfing authorities also put some parameters on golf balls, at least for tournament use. 

[jeffwarne]

Jim,


A few points here:


 I don't know if we could call bowling a major sport, but yes they do use their own balls.  That being said there isn't much variance between venues other than lane quickness and oil patterns...


Other sports were more "individualized" before the leagues took over.


- Football being the glaring example, kickers often had thier own balls just for kicks and some QBs used thier own methods to gain advantage! 


 - Baseball teams used to manage their own balls as well.  Some would soak em in water to deaden them, others would bake them to make em harder before the league stepped in.


- Even the NBA has tinkered with composite balls that all the lower leagues (college, high school) use, before going back to the all leather ones.

I thought the golfing authorities also put some parameters on golf balls, at least for tournament use.

They have for years. Callaway and Tileiest outspend them, and have a vested interest in lengthening the ball within the written rules, while the USGA evidently has a vested interest in denial.


OR Freddie Couples couch workout is worth an extra yard a year.