[V_Halyard]

I didn't realize until later that Ryan had been involved in SV.
Any facts & figures I used come from published and (I assume) reputable sources. 
I do think there are many points raised in my posts that are worth discussing/debating.
C&C and Mr K and the resorts themselves are big enough & successful enough to handle some criticism.
If I didn't believe what I wrote was justified, I wouldn't have written it.  I do think this current/dominant 'model' is flawed.   
But if my pen ran away in harshness/meanness, I regret that - my apologies.
Time now for that long hiatus.
Peter

Hi Peter. I don't know you so am not looking to offend. I'm a storyteller by trade so let's have some fun. 
I respect your somewhat second-hand-knowledge-fueled opinion regarding the SV land use, but I also invite you to take a look at my thoughts below.
I do admit up front to knowing Ryan and DMK and have seen their work over the last 3 years so will try to keep my Pro DMK/C&C/Farrow bias at bay but acknowledge that I hold a heavy pro-them bias.
I am blown away by their work.

That said, I proclaim that I may be in one of the more credible positions to offer a truly knowledgeable and informed opinion here.
1: Grew up in Wisconsin
2: I was a tree-trimmer temp-crew logger in my youth in both Milwaukee and this area of Sand Valley. As a young black kid logger looking to make some big summer money, I have stories...
3: I have been producing a documentary film on both the Sand Valley Property, and the adjacent preservation property for over 3 years now
4: I have spoken with, befriended and documented numerous locals and have become intimately familiar with the historical regional economics as part of our project.
5: Over the Years, have Played Erin's three or four iterations (I have lost count) including the latest.
6: I have first hand experience chairing an extensive private classic course Ross restoration (Not Sand Valley) and learned more than I or any non-architectural lay person should ever have to know about tactical golf course architecture, restoration and construction. Its a war and there is always blood.

Here is what I hope presents a fairly objective and GCA worthy discourse for consideration.
This will also be part of our film so we will have some GCA event-fun in the theaters next year.

1: The area sits among 10s of thousands of rows of abandoned or near dormant tree farms that had become overgrown and generated little or no revenue. It was was dead land. It is mile after mile of non-native pine that sit in the middle of an ancient lake bed on perhaps 2000 feet of sand. It WAS in the middle of all of Nowhere.

2: The paper mills have mostly closed, the tree cutting and lumber had essentially stopped. The jobs had gone away. It was analogous to a coal mining town. The County was the second poorest in the State of Wisconsin with all of things that go with being that poor. (Opiates, unemployment, strife, scuicide and a ton of other plain bad shit)

3: Enter the project, which has now become not only the largest employer in the area, it attracts both high net worth destination golfers and a surprisingly high number of regional / local, repeat daily play from Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, (Ask Morgan Clawson LOL) and the region. And let's talk about Jobs, tons of them supporting very high spends. Staff Jobs, trade Jobs Professional Jobs, Construction Jobs, hotel motel jobs, etc. Caddies, Jr. Caddies, Players and staff come from across the board. But back to golf.

4: The scale of development re-engages "dead" land and gives the architect and the player of all handicaps a unique opportunity to experience a dramatic scale of golf, spectacular inland vistas, views and entertaining play on par with Bandon and Sand Hills. There is so much dead non-revenue land, choked-off with non-native trees and invasive species that when you actually visit, I would make a bet that you say, "I get it now". 

5: The project is preserving and restoring geologically fascinating tracts land to post ice age conditions on both golf and adjacent non-golf preservation land as part of a restoration project. Cactus in Wisconsin and other rare species have re-emerged under the supervision of a great team of scientists.  This didn't just happen, it is part of a master plan. Nobody was going to spend a dime to do anything with this dead-assed land in the middle of nowhere generating zero money or tax revenue. I'm from here, I know.

6:  I can appreciate your viewpoint but propose that you make not only an actual trip to play Sand Valley, you drive the miles of roads around (16th 14th, Badger, etc) The will give you an informed and accurate perspective.

7: Regarding the courses, that will be your personal opinion. I love them all,(SV, Mammoth and the new C&C/Jimmy Built Par 3)
Every person, (male, female and father son trips) I have taken there has loved them. Interestingly, it has really endeared itself with the women golf groups that have visited.  SV and Erin seemingly serve two different golfer demographics.

8: Personally: My Erin vs: Sand Valley opinion comes down to this.
I choose to enjoy golf with friends (Indexes from +2 to -28)  Exactly zero friends I have taken to Erin have asked me to take them back. 100% of the people I have taken to Sand Valley have either tried to immediately glom onto me to "go around again", they have already been back once or twice, (or 5 for Morgan) or have already commenced planning for a trip next year.


For example, my cheap friend from Boston. 
For this piece, let's call him "Jimmy". (His Real Name -  He'll never see this)
Jimmy rarely flies anywhere longer than 3 hours and has "classic" golf gear because "I own it"...
Jimmy "The Penny" arrived at Sand Valley and to my shock and awe, on the first tee began planning his return trip with a group.
So for those reasons and others, I am all-in for Sand Valley.

I'm a big fan of Erin for achieving Rolex Clock Tower, belt-notch-status because it really adds to Wisconsin's tremendous ROTA of Kohler, Lawsonia, Sand Valley plus Sentry World and Privates like MCC, Blue Mound and others. That's a great week or more of golf.
Pre Herb Kohler, Wisconsin was a fly over/drive through. Sand Valley makes Wisconsin a must-play.

9: Sand Valley is spectacular and visually leaves people struggling to comprehend that they are truly in Wisconsin.

10: Nobody was going to do s#it with that land before SV came along, now, it is a "Drivable" bucket list location in range of 25 Million people.

11: So that's my story and as I said, I hope I did not offend but I do propose that you make a visit and better inform your opinion.

12: I will also firmly contend that in this case, I absolutely do know what the f*** I'm talking about.

Yours in GCA!

Vaughn

[Kalen Braley]

V_Halyard,


That last post was beyond exceptional. 


However, you should be careful with that kind of well thought out, well-informed, and well reasoned talk in here....might make a few heads explode! 

[V_Halyard]

V_Halyard,


That last post was beyond exceptional. 


However, you should be careful with that kind of well thought out, well-informed, and well reasoned talk in here....might make a few heads explode! 

I am honred to receive a Kalen Warning such as this!!

[Mike Wagner]

I didn't realize until later that Ryan had been involved in SV.
Any facts & figures I used come from published and (I assume) reputable sources. 
I do think there are many points raised in my posts that are worth discussing/debating.
C&C and Mr K and the resorts themselves are big enough & successful enough to handle some criticism.
If I didn't believe what I wrote was justified, I wouldn't have written it.  I do think this current/dominant 'model' is flawed.   
But if my pen ran away in harshness/meanness, I regret that - my apologies.
Time now for that long hiatus.
Peter

Hi Peter. I don't know you so am not looking to offend. I'm a storyteller by trade so let's have some fun. 
I respect your somewhat second-hand knowledge fueled opinion regarding the land use but I also invite you to take a look at my thoughts below.
I do admit up front to knowing Ryan and DMK and have seen their work over the last 3 years so will try to keep my Pro DMK/C&C/Farrow bias at bay but acknowledge that I hold a heavy pro-them bias.
I am blown away by their work.

That said, I proclaim that I may be in one of the more credible positions to offer a truly knowledgeable and informed opinion here.
1: Grew up in Wisconsin
2: I was a tree-trimmer temp-crew logger in my youth in both Milwaukee and this area of Sand Valley. As a young black kid logger looking to make some big summer money, I have stories...
3: I have been producing a documentary film on both the Sand Valley Property the adjacent preservation property for over 3 years now
4: I have spoken with, befriended and documented numerous locals and have become intimately familiar with the historical regional economics as part of our project.
5: Over the Years, have Played Erin's three or four iterations (I have lost count) including the latest.
6: I have a first hand experience chairing an extensive classic course restoration (Not Sand Valley) and learned more than I should about tactical course architecture and construction.

Here is what I hope presents a fairly objective and GCA worthy discourse for consideration.
This will also be part of our film so we will have some GCA event-fun in the theaters next year.

1: The area sits among 10s of thousands of rows of abandoned or near dormant tree farms that had become overgrown and generated little or no revenue. It was was dead land. It is mile after mile of non-native pine that sit in the middle of an ancient lake bed on perhaps 2000 feet of sand. It WAS in the middle of all of Nowhere.

2: The paper mills have mostly closed, the tree cutting and lumber had essentially stopped. The jobs had gone away. It was analogous to a coal mining town.The County was the second poorest in the State of Wisconsin with all of things that go with being that poor. (Opiates, unemployment, strife, scuicide and a ton of other plain bad shit)

3: Enter the project, which has now become not only the largest employer in the area, it attracts both high net worth destination golfers and a surprisingly high number of regional / local repeat daily play from Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, (Ask Morgan Clawson LOL) and the region. And let's talk about Jobs, tons of them supporting very high spends. Staff Jobs, trade Jobs Professional Jobs, Construction Jobs, hotel motel jobs, etc Its a cross the board. But back to golf.

4: The scale of development re-engages dead land and gives the architect and the player of all handicaps a unique opportunity to experience a dramatic scale of golf, spectacular inland vistas, views and entertaining play on par with Bandon and Sand Hills. There is so much dead non-revenue land, choked-off with non-native trees and invasive species that when you actually visit, I would make a bet that you say, "I get it now". 

5: The project is preserving and restoring geologically fascinating tracts land to post ice age conditions on both golf and adjacent non-golf preservation land as part of a restoration project. Cactus in Wisconsin and other rare species have re-emerged under the supervision of a great team of scientists.  That is part of the plan. Nobody was going to spend a dime to do anything with this dead-assed land in the middle of nowhere generating zero money or tax revenue. I'm from here, I know.

6:  I can appreciate your viewpoint but propose that you make not only an actual trip to play Sand Valley, you drive the miles of roads around (16th 14th, Badger, etc) You will have a more accurate perspective.

7: Regarding the courses, that will be your personal opinion. I love them all, everybody I have taken there has loved them all so I will leave that up to you.  They serve two different golfer demographics.

8: Personally: my Erin vs: Sand Valley opinion comes down to this. I like to enjoy golf with friends (Indexes from 2 to 18) and zero friends I have taken to Erin have asked me to take them back. 100% that  I have taken to Sand Valley have either tried to glom on for another round, have already been back once or twice, or have already begun planning for a trip next year. Even my chap-assed friend from Boston I'll call "Jimmy".(His Real Name -  He'll never see this) Jimmy rarely flies anywhere longer than 3 hours and has classic bad golf gear because... Jimmy arrived and on the first tee began planning a return trip.
So for those reasons and others which I admit are probably biased, I am Sand Valley.

9: The place is spectacular and visually leaves people trying to understand if they are really in Wisconsin.


10: Nobody was going to do shit with that land before this came along, now, it is a "Drivable" bucket list location for 25 Million people.

11: So that's my story and as I said, I hope I did not offend but I do propose that you make a visit and might tweak your opinion.
I will however firmly contend that in this case, I absolutely do know what the f*** I'm talking about.


Yours in GCA!

Vaughn

Fanfu&^ingtastic!

[Dave McCollum]

I  confess, I didn't read much of this thread.  I didn't even read very carefully why Peter was withdrawing from discussions.  When he said he was, I was delighted.  Peter, you comment on so much, your writing is artful, your insights enlightening, but you write about...well, everything.  The rest of us are not worth your efforts.  We appreciate your skills as a writer, but inevitably, we doubt you know so much about the wide range of subjects you tackle that it becomes a writing exercise, the kind of thing we were assigned in freshman year of college.  I don't know about others, however I found myself skipping over your posts because I didn't need to recognize your skill as a writer while questioning your expertise on the subject.  Take a break.  As I've said, we aren't worth your effort.  Pick and choose when to come back and how often.  I don't know you and we've never met.  Yet I consider you an example of the talent that makes the site worth visiting.  Come back.  We need your voice.  Just jettison the obsession.  We aren't worth it.       

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

I played Erin Hills and Sand Valley yesterday and today.  It was my first time on each. I enjoyed them both.  If I had to choose one as my home course, I would choose SV.  The fairways are generous on both, which I consider a good thing.  EH has several holes where a drive on the “wrong” side of the fairway leaves the player with a blind shot to the green (ie, 2, 12, 17).  This adds strategic interest, but it is not my cup of tea.  Although the shot into the green on 2 is a short iron, the target is a very small push up green with steep fall offs.  Numbers 12 and 17 can require a much longer blind approach.  I prefer, and this is just a matter of taste, SV’s approach to adding strategic interest to wide fairways: Some holes have central bunkers, with one side or the other offering a clearly better approach to a visible green while others have bunkers that can be carried by a well-struck drive from an appropriate tee.  I also prefer the green complexes at SV.  The greens are generally large, and some are very large, with rolls large and small.  The terrain around the greens is similar.  Creativity and shot variety are rewarded, a hallmark of C&C courses.  Some of EH’s holes have green complexes of similar interest (eg, 3, 13, and 15), but I prefer SV’s over all.  All that said, I prefer Bandon Trails to SV as an example of C&C’s skill and artistry.  Indeed, I think it is unfair to expect SV to be another Bandon...let alone better simply because it is the latest.  SV is still raw, but even when it matures it will lack the majesty of Bandon.

[Jud_T]

Just played SV for the first time this weekend and was very impressed.  The greens and routing are top notch.  As an average, or below average, player at this point it’s clear the SV>EH for the average club player.  EH is a bit of a mess, first they played up how they’d hardly moved a spoonful of dirt, then new owner, walking only US Open course with changes.  Strong, fit players with a chub for tournament venues will like EH,  Everyone else should head north.


PS- Bill, the turf at SV is also better and will likely give Kingsley a run for it’s money in time.


PSS- SV vs. Lawsonia is more interesting.  SV will have better turf but Lawsonia is tough to beat for almost anyone- 6-4 Lawsonia.

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Just finished 9 holes on Mammoth Dunes.  Kidd has done a spectacular job.  If the other nine turn out as good, MD will be the top course at Sand Valley...IMHO.  At least until Tom Doak gets the commission for the third course.  In fairness, however, I must note MD has some blind shots into the green from the fairway...or even the tee (on par 3 #16)!  This is a trait I complained about on Erin Hills.  Consistency, that’s for little minds.

[Morgan Clawson]

Just finished 9 holes on Mammoth Dunes.  Kidd has done a spectacular job.  If the other nine turn out as good, MD will be the top course at Sand Valley...IMHO.  At least until Tom Doak gets the commission for the third course.  In fairness, however, I must note MD has some blind shots into the green from the fairway...or even the tee (on par 3 #16)!  This is a trait I complained about on Erin Hills.  Consistency, that’s for little minds.

Glenn, the next set of holes to open for play at Mammoth Dunes, 6-14, is stronger as a group than the first 9 that's available for play now (1-5,15-18).  Here's my thread with all holes pictured:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64124.0.html

I think 16 works very well as you can see where the pin is as you walk up to the tee area.  And it's really only partially blind from the tee.   

16 is my favorite par 3 on Mammoth right now.  It's the most dynamic with tee shot options and a green with lots of movement. And I like the partial blindness aspect too.

[Morgan Clawson]

Just played SV for the first time this weekend and was very impressed.  The greens and routing are top notch.  As an average, or below average, player at this point it’s clear the SV>EH for the average club player.  EH is a bit of a mess, first they played up how they’d hardly moved a spoonful of dirt, then new owner, walking only US Open course with changes.  Strong, fit players with a chub for tournament venues will like EH,  Everyone else should head north.
PS- Bill, the turf at SV is also better and will likely give Kingsley a run for it’s money in time.
PSS- SV vs. Lawsonia is more interesting.  SV will have better turf but Lawsonia is tough to beat for almost anyone- 6-4 Lawsonia.

Judd - Good comments!  You probably know this, but others might not.  The chief agronomist at Sand Valley - Rob Duhm - previously worked on Kingsley's terrific fescue turf with Dan Lucas.

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Morgan, Your pictures are wonderful!  Can’t wait to see the remaining holes of MD.  I am going to walk them tomorrow. 


I just played SV for the second time.  I enjoyed it even more the 2nd time around.  As first off this morning, I had time to look at holes more carefully, especially green complexes.  C&C did a wonderful job.  My favorite holes are: par 3 third (Redan-like); par 5 seventh, with a central bunker adding challenge and interest to the second shot; the twelfth, with its demanding tee shot over the trees and between bunkers left and right; and the par 3 seventeenth, with its punch bowl green.


On balance, I still prefer Bandon Trails over SV, but the contest is closer after seeing SV again.


I am an eager student of GCA, but the more good courses I see, the more I realize how much I have to learn.

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