Another Norman course bites the dust...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Remember Stonehaven to Mirabel in  Scottsdale? Now there is Beechwood to Doral Tesoro in Dallas.
From the Dallas News

For Beechwood, it's a new age
Doral Tesoro layout is a makeover of the old Greg Norman design


04:02 AM CDT on Wednesday, October 8, 2003

In a matter of weeks, the Doral Tesoro Golf Club will open at the same spot where The Creeks at Beechwood opened just over three years ago.

Doral Tesoro will open on Nov. 1 next to the Doral Hotel in Fort Worth, both of which are managed by Interstate Hotels, which manages Doral brand courses and hotels nationwide.

But it's actually the debut of a complete makeover of the Beechwood design credited to Greg Norman. The course was closed in February, and Interstate moved in to make the changes on the course and at the hotel. Flower Mound-based architects Jay and Carter Morrish handled the redesign.


 
Kelly Hicke, the hotel and golf course marketing manager and PGA member, said players who attempted to conquer the Beechwood course will have a hard time picking out more than a few holes they recognize from the original layout.

"There are nine holes that have been completely changed," said Hicke. "We removed over 250 trees in places where players were hitting their balls. Now there's a lot more mounding, or containment areas, that will make the ball kick toward the fairway. Every green has also been rebuilt and raised out of the flood plain."

Hicke said the course has events scheduled for its grand opening during the second half of October. The hotel has remained open through the entire process. Hicke and the Interstate management are hoping the course and the hotel (which opened on Sept. 11, 2001) realize the developers' original hopes.

"Since I've been here over the last two months, I've booked a lot of corporate outings and conventions for next spring," said Hicke. "People who played the course before loved it, but they wouldn't come back because it was too difficult."

[BCrosby]

From the article:

"People who played the course before loved it, but they wouldn't come back because it was too difficult."

That quote captures pretty well typical American expectations about golf course architecture and why so many Golden Age courses evolved they way they did.

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

I know several people who played The Creeks and not one even remotely "loved" the course.  My host, a teaching pro elsewhere, disliked it so much that he felt compelled to let the management know (it was very embarrasing).  It was not only way too difficult, it was a huge engineering and routing mistake.  Norman chose to take a minimalist approach on a relatively unexciting site utilizing the several creeks and run-off areas which are part of a flood plain.  Unfortunately, he failed to locate some greens on high land (or build up the grade), and they flooded.  I've only played one other Norman course, Sugar Loaf, which I really liked.  I don't kow what happened here, but he totally missed the mark.  I'll play Morrish's redo when it opens.  While not expecting another Pine Dunes, I would be surprised if he doesn't greatly improve on the original.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Perhaps Norman is following the early career of Nicklaus whose first courses were deemed too difficult. I'm thinking of LaPaloma in Tucson. Nicklaus said a few years ago that he would never build a resort course today as difficult as LaPaloma. Stonehaven by Norman was built as high end daily fee with instructions by the developer to make it a memorable course. Memorable to Norman meant difficult. I hope he doesn't screw up the second course at Quintero in AZ. I have a friend who is a member there and look forward to my annual visit to AZ in Feb.

[A_Clay_Man]

This discussion would be improved if anyone knows anything about the original "marching orders" and budget.(since lou said it was minimalistic)

[Lou_Duran]

I don't recall the actual numbers for The Creeks, but the budget was more than ample.  Would Norman accept anything less?  It was supposed to be another CCFAD with $100+ green fees (in a $35 market).

The site really called for a more Fazioan approach of helping Mother Nature where she had an off day, some containment for sure, better framing, and the redanman's buzz saw.  Maybe some of the guys who went nuts over Black Mesa would have appreciated some aspects of The Creeks.  For me, may it R.I.P.  It does have a nice practice facility and clubhouse!

[erichunter]

Lou Doran--

I played Pine Dunes early in the year...Morrish did a great job IMHO.   What did you think of it?

[Tim_Weiman]

Adam,

You are a man after my heart!

I can't speak to the "marching orders" for The Creeks, but sticking with Norman, I did have a concern about this issue as it relates to Doonbeg. During one of my construction stage visits, I was treated very nicely by someone from Landmark that happened to be present. It wasn't easy to give frank feedback to such a gracious host, but I felt compelled to express that the project team seemed misdirected to me. They seemed to be building a golf course for Greg Norman to play, but not the ordinary mid handicapper who would actually play the course. During our tour I pointed out several places (shots) where I had this impression.

It was obvious the Landmark person was uncomfortable with my comments, almost as if he agreed but Norman was such a forceful personality that such input wouldn't be easy to convey.

Now, to be fair, I've never met Norman nor any member of his team. I don't know what kind of working environment he creates. I can only read between the lines and conclude there was a problem with "marching orders" or discussion along the way on how best to implement them. Why else would changes be coming?

Again, it is nice to see someone agree our discussion would be enhanced by greater "inside" knowledge or, better yet, direct input from those involved in the project. These issues are obviously sensitive, but our discussion would be more rewarding if we could take some steps in that direction.

[Lou_Duran]

erichunter- I like Pine Dunes a lot.  It could be in my Texas top 10, maybe even top 5, if it was kept firm and fast.  The two times I've been out there, it was quite wet, though weather more than a $1.5MM irrigation system may have accounted for the conditions.

Tim- I am not sure that clients always give architects real precise marching orders, but maybe something more general like "build me the best collegiate golf course in the .....".  To the extent that architects develop certain styles and reputations, I suspect that they are often chosen on that basis (specially when the developers have plenty of money).  Knowing Norman only through observation from afar and his utterances in the media, I suspect that he likes to call his own shots.  I doubt that he is an artist like Stranz.  He probably relies on his substantial athleticism and strong willpower.  Norman was never an average golfer- he was shooting par within a year of picking up the game.  With such a strong personality and great gifts as a player, perhaps he simply has a hard time building for the rest of us.  Perhaps through time he'll learn to be more sympathetic.  The story I heard is that when he first played The Creeks he shot close to 80.  That should have told him and the developer (a now bankrupt rural utility co-op) that something was amiss.    

[Tim_Weiman]

Lou,

I'm not sure either. Moreover, were I calling the shots I would be reluctant to get too specific. I'd rather hire the right guy, give some general direction and then get out of the way.

You comments on Norman seem consistent with my observations.

One thought: Pete Dye has built some courses that are known for challeging the best players but they are still enjoyed by ordinary golfers. I wonder what he has done right that Norman seems - in some cases at least - to have missed.

Any idea?

[Lou_Duran]

Tim,

I've played far more Dye courses than Norman.  I am not a huge fan of Pete's work, though I always enjoy taking my shot at it.  I believe that it was Mike Vegis of Kiawah Island fame who observed once that Pete always gave you one side to miss on.  At the Ocean Course, I guess I just never found the safe one.  But often, he does give you enough width to get the ball around the course.

Both, The Creeks and Sugar Loaf, the only Norman courses I've played, require (d) a number of precisely struck heroic shots to do welll.  If you missed on these, the sky is the limit in terms of scoring.  Both courses use (d) water and natural areas extensively, which again just piled-on the less accomplished player.

Dye is probably more adept at using transition areas, and again, subject to my lack of familiarity with much of Norman's work, is better at providing alternative ways (more strategic) to play a hole.  Pete also seems to enjoy making things look difficult beyond what they are.  Norman's courses not only look tough, but they seem to play even more so.

[les_claytor]

I've heard quite a bit about the course, or "X" course in question in my short time in Dallas.  Supposedly, the creek crossing bridges washed out just before opening, bcs the floodplains and velocities of the creek was underestimated.  Everyone that played the course said it was just kind of weird with trees in the fairways, and lots of impossible shots.  

I hear tee  times were going for like $15 - $20 a round before closing just to get someone out there.  I also heard Norman hated the course when it opened, but again this is all insider gossip (from superintendents and the like that I trust.)

Interesting discussion on Mr. Dye's philosophy vs. Norman.  I've been lucky enough to go on a walk-through w/ Mr. Dye and I know he is always concerned with what route the average player , he calls him " John Q Public", is going to take.  It's the funniest thing and I love the term "John Q", but leaving a route for "John Q" is equally important as how the scratch player will attack.  They really are two quite different approaches and reconciling the possibilities for both strategies is a big part of Mr. Dye's genius.

[Eric_Dorsey]

I lived in FW for 5 years and never got out to play there.  I always wanted to as Greg was my hero growing up, but come to think of it, I never heard anything good about it.  I remember one 15-handicapper friend saying it was 'very tight' and quite difficult.  He said he would play it again ONLY because it was only $25 - cart & balls included!

What about Meadowbrook Farms north of Houston?  I saw this ranked in the top-25 courses in the state of TX.  Is this a better layout?

If in FW and can't get on Colonial or Mira Vista - play Southern Oaks - I thought it was great!  Mark Brooks got it right the 1st time, but haven't heard a peep out of him since.

strange though as I remember them having a kick-ass website and much more expensive green fees - like $70.  Now the website looks live crap, and the green fees are half that - maybe they're going belly up too

www.southernoaksgolf.com

dorse