[Ira Fishman]

The thread about trees prompts this question:  were the trees at #7 on Pasatiempo there from the beginning?  If not, when were they planted?  I think it is a really good hole; the parallel tree lines make it seem a bit out of character for the course though.


Ira

[David Peters]

Looks like they were not there in 1931.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Pasa.html

[Robert Kimball]

From my understanding, the trees were planted as a buffer/barrier for player safety. The holes hit a bit of a log jam in that area, and someone was worried about players getting hit with balls.


So, I believe the answer to the question is they were planted intentionally.


Furthermore, the trees to the right of #1 are there to help ping pong wayward tee shots into the 9th fairway LZ.


Great course, I need to get back there post-Doak.


Rob

[Tyler Kearns]

Ira,


The tree plantings on No. 7 were done to attempt to resolve a safety issue.  I believe somebody had been seriously injured on the 8th green by a wayward tee shot from No. 7.


Tyler

[Jim Hoak]

Personally, I do not like that look--the hole is ruined by the artificiality of the trees.  But the green complex is good.
I love Pasatiempo, but #6 (with the fencing on the left), # 7 (with the picket fence trees), and #8 (with the unplayable green) make it one of the best 15 hole courses anywhere.

[Ira Fishman]

Thanks to all for the prompt information.


Jim, I only played once (but will most assuredly go back).  I agree on #6, at least after the drive which is interesting, but liked #8 perhaps because of the green.  #17 is the only other hole I found "ehh".  All in all, one of the most strategic and enjoyable courses I have played. 


Ira

[Steve Fekety]

After yesterday's blow up with Peter, the thing I like most about the site is that Jim Hoak can have his opinions and voice them about these three holes.  While his opinion differs completely from mine, I am still interested in his opinion.  Frankly, I think the trees add to the strategy of a shortish Par 5 (516 from the middle tees) and a very short Par 4 (335).  Without those trees, those are two very different holes, maybe too easy, compared to the rest of the course. 


I totally agree about the 8th green, but I choose to view that as one of its many charms.

[Kalen Braley]

I think there are enough excellent holes otherwise on the front 9 to justify having #7 to make it all work.  I do think when it was built, it was likely intended for limited play, and with the complete absence of liability laws, it probably wasn't a big deal at the time.


But that still doesn't mean I wouldn't mind having a time machine and asking Dr. MacK wtf is up with that.  Given the routing genius that I perceive him to have been, was there nothing else to be worked out?

[JLahrman]

Personally, I do not like that look--the hole is ruined by the artificiality of the trees.  But the green complex is good.
I love Pasatiempo, but #6 (with the fencing on the left), # 7 (with the picket fence trees), and #8 (with the unplayable green) make it one of the best 15 hole courses anywhere.

+1

After yesterday's blow up with Peter, the thing I like most about the site is that Jim Hoak can have his opinions and voice them about these three holes.  While his opinion differs completely from mine, I am still interested in his opinion.  Frankly, I think the trees add to the strategy of a shortish Par 5 (516 from the middle tees) and a very short Par 4 (335).  Without those trees, those are two very different holes, maybe too easy, compared to the rest of the course. 

I totally agree about the 8th green, but I choose to view that as one of its many charms.

I don't know about "too easy", and I get the safety concerns, but I don't see how they wouldn't be more strategic without the trees. I've only played there a couple of times, but #7 is so narrow, and I'm so wild, that I just choke down on a 4-iron and try to bunt one up the fairway. Open up that hole, let me hit my usual banana ball driver off the tee (because I know I'm not going to be able to resist) and now I'm coming into that green from short right of the hole? Shallow green with bunkers short and long? Yowza.

[Steve Fekety]

With no trees, I would hit driver ever single time...


Now, its a 4 hybrid or maybe a 5 wood into the wind.

[Pete Lavallee]

I believe someone on #8 green was actually killed when hit in the head by a drive off #6 before the holes were separated with trees. The Good Doctor mentioned in his book to his wife that there was a bunker big enough to hide 100 troops in the 7th fairway. This probably provided a sort of mental rather than physical separation to keep things safe.

[JLahrman]

With no trees, I would hit driver ever single time...

And we'd probably make a lot more 6s to go with a 3 every now and then.

[Matt_Cohn]

I hate #7. But I'm confused why 6, 7, and 8 were squeezed so close together in the first place? And then why the houses were built so close on the left side of #6?

[Tyler Kearns]

I hate #7. But I'm confused why 6, 7, and 8 were squeezed so close together in the first place? And then why the houses were built so close on the left side of #6?

Matt,


Mackenzie probably wasn't involved in creating the land plan for the community of Pasatiempo, and he did the best he could with the land left to him to design the course.  The routing in very good, most notably the back nine.  Why was he left with such a narrow parcel where No.'s 6-8 reside?  I'm sure the developer wanted to maximize profits and got as many residential lots into the plan as possible.


Tyler

[Matt_Cohn]

I hate #7. But I'm confused why 6, 7, and 8 were squeezed so close together in the first place? And then why the houses were built so close on the left side of #6?

Matt,


Mackenzie probably wasn't involved in creating the land plan for the community of Pasatiempo, and he did the best he could with the land left to him to design the course.  The routing in very good, most notably the back nine.  Why was he left with such a narrow parcel where No.'s 6-8 reside?  I'm sure the developer wanted to maximize profits and got as many residential lots into the plan as possible.


Tyler

Makes sense, except for the ample setbacks on every other hole. Anyone know?

[Tom_Doak]

I believe that MacKenzie was quite involved with the development plan for Pasatiempo.  After all, one of the houses alongside #6 was his own!


I think that he envisioned #6 and #7 as having one big shared fairway.  Combined, they are 300 feet across from the fence by his house to the tree line left of #7 ... which is the minimum space used for a single hole on development plans today.  Having no trees in between the two holes is easy to see as potentially dangerous; you could argue that it would be safer for the two holes to be open and everyone see everyone else, but you don't want to have to argue it in court.


I've seen several MacKenzie courses which have similar issues ... he tried so hard to use a natural feature for two adjacent holes that it becomes a safety problem, and then trees are introduced to try and solve the safety problem, negating the strategy of both holes.  I guess MacKenzie just did not visualize how busy or popular some of his courses would become -- or how afraid of liability suits we would be in the modern age.

[Niall C]

I think Tom has it bang on. Most architects pay lip service to TOC but MacK was fond of having parallel holes playing opposite directions almost play in together. I doubt he thought much of what would happen with courses getting busier, balls flying further and society becoming ever more litigious.


Niall

[Kalen Braley]

Given the course doesn't seem to have glaring offset issues otherwise...perhaps it was MacK who insisted on building his house where he did creating the entire mess in the 1st place! 

[Marty Bonnar]

#7 is far from the worst hole on the course. That’s clearly reserved for #15.
 
F.

[Tom_Doak]

#7 is far from the worst hole on the course. That’s clearly reserved for #15.
 
F.

Not in my book.  Did you airmail it into the barranca or something?  Some great hole locations on that green.

[David_Elvins]

#7 is far from the worst hole on the course. That’s clearly reserved for #15.
 
F.

What??? 


Please explain.

[Marty Bonnar]

Gents,
For me, it’s down to only the one thing.
The look of the bunkering. Specifically, the spatial relationship of the four on the front. It’s just very jarring to my eyes.


F.
PS Yes, Tom, I found the big one...

[Stephen Davis]

I have played Pasatiempo a decent amount and just played their Invitational a few weeks ago. I LOVE the course! It is wonderful and nuanced. Everything you would want a course to be. #7 is the weak spot in the course. I understand the safety issues, but I think the line of trees is a bit much. I think you could protect the players on #8 green very easily by leaving a few of the trees just left of the 7th tee. This would protect against the hard, fast pull hook. Outside of that every thing else can be mitigated by one word... "FORE!".

[Pete_Pittock]

Maybe he only routed 17 holes, added  the 8th and had to make alterations on the 7th? San Jose St hosts a tournament there every April.

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