Why not?

[jeffwarne]

Assuming one could get the manufacturers to cooperate, what would the pros and cons of building or better yet simply slightly retrofitting a classic course a course with 2 or even one sets of tees
say 5500 yards and 6500 yards


and using golf balls that go variable lenths?


For instance a junior or woman amateur could use 100% balls at 5800
and be joined by a low-medium capper at the same tee with an 80% ball


or the young scratch or plus capper could play the 6500 with an 80% ball against an older player (me) using a 100% ball.


Pros
The scale of courses would not have to continue to grow, less tees and maintenance would be needed, safety corridors could be smaller
What else?


Cons
Such a ball is not readily available
Competitive players may not want to jump around with variable balls

[John Kavanaugh]

I simply do not understand. At 6500 yds I will beat any golfer that hits it 30 yds past me off the tee 80% of the time. Why would I want to give them the advantage, that I currently hold, of their misses staying in play?


Now if you want to play from 7200 yds and give them an 80% ball we may have a bet. I spent 30 years wondering why old men could beat me and now that I am one you want to take my advantage away. Why, why, why?

[jeffwarne]

I simply do not understand. At 6500 yds I will beat any golfer that hits it 30 yds past me off the tee 80% of the time. Why would I want to give them the advantage, that I currently hold, of their misses staying in play?


Now if you want to play from 7200 yds and give them an 80% ball we may have a bet. I spent 30 years wondering why old men could beat me and now that I am one you want to take my advantage away. Why, why, why?

I'm confident you'd find a way to game it

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm sorry but I thought beating your opponent straight up meant something. As a matter of fact if I have 110 yds in with a hard ball I am at a disadvantage if my opponent is using a soft ball. I'd rather see him in the rough 30 yds ahead of me with the same modern rock I'm playing.


Please don't feed me the hocus pocus logic that a modern ball that does not produce side spin somehow increases back spin. Your 80% ball is flat going to be cake inside 100 yds for even a marginally capable player.

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff,

I go along with your thinking and tried with this thread a while back -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63366.msg1508663.html#msg1508663

atb

[Niall C]

Jeff
 
Respectfully, I don’t think length is necessarily the issue here. Since time began, there have been golfers of differing abilities who hit the ball different lengths and with a great variance in terms of consistency and accuracy. At the outset they were all accommodated on the same course.
 
Of course, courses evolved/lengthened over time to reflect changes in equipment (some may call it improvements, I certainly would) as well as evolving trends in course design. However the range of abilities of those that played them remained the same. By and large courses continued to cater for all types. That suggests to me length isn’t really the issue.
 
What I think the problem is, is that many are fixated on length, including gca’s and developers, and not length itself (or the absence of it). If we went back to simply having playing corridors, with an absence of cross hazards ie. ponds,  rather than having set landing areas that necessitated the need for 6 different sets of tees to allow for players of different abilities, or if we forgot about the idea that there must be a three shotter for the scratch golfer for it to be a proper course, then the overall length of the course wouldn’t matter a jot. 
 
What gca’s/developers need to do is channel their inner MacKenzie and make courses fun, challenging and playable for all. In that context I mean the course to be from the same set of tees to the same hole.
 
Apologies if that sounds like a bit of a rant.
 
Niall 

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,
I go along with your thinking and tried with this thread a while back -http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63366.msg1508663.html#msg1508663
atb

Great minds Thomas


Niall,
 valid points
I 'm not saying the game is too easy-I'm living proof it isn't.




But anyone who has played a game with a powerful player lately would have a hard time not saying the scale of the game is out of whack for lbetter players or worse yet-wild high handicap longer hitters.
Years ago, despite massive retrofitting, we lost many of our Golden Age Courses for Major events,and the entertainment value they provide.We are slowly losing more and are soon to have none.
Now we are relegated to such venues as Liberty National, Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, and Whistling Straits to contain them, or complete bastardization and inconvenience for the members of a Classic venue ..
Many will say "so what?" but TV Golf is entertainment and myself and many others don't watch when we find the venues increasingly vapid and devoid of charm.


For the "distance isn't an issue for most people"
or "hate the idea"
or it's impractical ..
"average handicaps haven't improved in years" crowd (which I dispute-look at how many plus handicappers there are now vs, 30 years ago-exponential)
or anyone else who hasn't watched a TOUR event or major in the last 3 years


they and their cronies could always play the course as they do now with their current super balls.


An added benefit-players of varying lengths and abilities could all play the same tees-something that is increasingly not possible on modern courses with up to 6 sets of tees.
To say nothing of shortenng the walks.


Maybe I'm wrong ,but....wouldn't it be fun to watch a US Open at Merion where they played 85% balls, and then you went out and played with your regular equipment?-Different tees don't really provide that as they may merely (or drastically) change the tee shot, and/or put the second shot out of scale-and introduce the whole cross hazard issue Niall points out.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is no different than the make the hole bigger movement so we can all pretend that we can putt. We all make choices in our lives that make us worse golfers. Why not? Why not sacrifice something and get better? Why not take a look in the mirror?

[Niall C]

Jeff
 
I’m starting from the point that I’m not too concerned with what the very top guys do. I recall when someone asked Mark Parsinen about the pro’s shooting very low scores at Castle Stuart his response was good on them, a view point I totally agree with. If they are very good, let them show it and let’s not worry about the numbers (and if you want televised golf to be more exciting then I suggest we need to get Jordan and Jason to get a bloody move on but that’s for another thread entirely).
 
Now that might mean that todays superstars aren’t playing the same game on the classic courses that previous golfing greats did which might be a shame, but the flip side of that is guys like me who on a (very) good day might now hit the ball as far as a Bobby Jones or a Henry Cotton used to thanks to the benefit of modern equipment, can play a classic course off the normal tees (roughly equivalent to what the old timers might have played) and see how they measure up.
 
The fact that I’ll struggle to break 80 while they used to shoot 65 or 66 just illustrates that there is a lot more to this game than length. By focusing on length, and in particular using how far the best golfers hit the ball as a yardstick, we’re in danger of ignoring the other issues that are in my view more important.
 
Niall

[BCowan]

This is no different than the make the hole bigger movement so we can all pretend that we can putt. We all make choices in our lives that make us worse golfers. Why not? Why not sacrifice something and get better? Why not take a look in the mirror?

"To Jeff Warne on Golf Club Atlas and his topic "Why Not?" May I suggest with 'extreme prejudice' that you take your topic and go and find another sport that's more is in tune with your ideas." MHM


John, I think u owe Melvyn a hug

[Rich Goodale]

Good thoughts, Jeff, but not at all practical.


IMHO the central essence of golf for 85% of us iis 'Ball go Far!"  My wife is a very good woman golfer who could never beat me (YET!) if we played off the same tees.  I played Ladybank a few weeks ago in a 2-day competition with some seriously good players (scratch for 30-40 years), 4-5 HCP now.  Even for them 400 yards was a a good drive and a good 2 iron on slightly up hill holes.  Our scores were in the 75-85 range.


Give the Cayman ball to the flat bellies, and let us geezers hit whatever we can see.


Should I send some caymans to your son for Xmas, Jeff, so you and he could play the same game?


All the best


Rich

[Thomas Dai]

Golf committee meeting -
Committee Member "Why don't we try this approach?"
Another Committee Member "That sounds like thinking outside the box and we don't do thinking outside the box around here!"
Committee Chairman "Quite right, we don't do thinking outside the box around here!"
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Good thoughts, Jeff, but not at all practical.


IMHO the central essence of golf for 85% of us iis 'Ball go Far!"  My wife is a very good woman golfer who could never beat me (YET!) if we played off the same tees.  I played Ladybank a few weeks ago in a 2-day competition with some seriously good players (scratch for 30-40 years), 4-5 HCP now.  Even for them 400 yards was a a good drive and a good 2 iron on slightly up hill holes.  Our scores were in the 75-85 range.


Give the Cayman ball to the flat bellies, and let us geezers hit whatever we can see.


Should I send some caymans to your son for Xmas, Jeff, so you and he could play the same game?


All the best


Rich

Rich,
He's grown-it's ugly now.


Rich, no one's asking you to play Caymans. Ball go far people can continue to play what they are.


The amazing thing is, it would affect no one except those WHO CHOSE TO PLAY the shorter ball.
I could play the forward tees with my wife, walk in 2 hours on the 4800 yard course with her and play MY game with the shorter ball.


has zero impact on ANYONE else if I play a shorter ball.


What amazes me, is that anyone could defend what currently goes on now with 5 sets of tees, players on different tees causing lost social interaction, handicap/slope/CR adjustments, gross wastes of land,$$, and maintenance, bastardizing of classic courses, new modern length 5+ hour monstrocities.....
AS MORE PRACTICAL......... than me playing a shorter ball with my wife.
Or my Champions tour buddy Scott Parel (297 driving average) playing the shorter ball (me with ProV) while we play Palmetto.


The problem is, such balls aren't readily available.because there is no perceived demand


Hickories are great and a really cool option, but they are quite expensive and then it REALLY becomes a game of who has the best equipment-to say nothing of the timing changes going back and forth from that to modern clubs.


A simple shorter ball-that I and others-can buy.


Open minds might just allow them to become available.
Surely there are more here than in mainstream golf,


Interesting that most just look at it as "how does this affect me" because they have a classic course they are comfortable playing with modern equipment. Good on you but your kids may not have that same luxury.
One by one, those courses are going away as modern monstrosities suck away the attention, the $$, and the biggest money spending members. Having high profile events at a modern monster further dilutes the paying member pool.
I have overseas friends who want to come over here and have me get them on Liberty National probaly not in the Top 100 in the MET area, but big enough to gather the events and attention.


.
Inwood, Siwanoy, Engineersetc. all former highly regarded big brawny courses that hosted majors, that are now reduced to pitch and putts by elite players and no longer have their cashe due to technology.
No doubt the same is true all over the UK-----great courses? yes-- but if the better highly skilled players aren't chattering about your course and are instead filling up the modern monstrocities, your course, or another like it, is eventually on the way out.
and even if they come back they bring their 5 hour all day mindset with them.

[BCowan]

Jeff,


The 5 sets of tees is all due to a generation where their parents never told them NO.  4 sets of tees are fine and I can show courses with them on 7,000 yard courses from the tips with $350,000 maint budgets.  #moregreenspace

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


We did just fine with three sets of tees before your generation started playing.


And FYI, the fifth set of tees is usually for guys a bit older than me, rather than for you.

[BCowan]

Tom,


3 sets is awful, ladies championship/senior tee or short ladies tee gets axed. 


Tips
Mens
Ladies champ/senior
Ladies


3 sets of tees has caused us to go to 5-7 sets and combos, because thanks to burger King u can have it your way.  I grew up on 3 sets of tees, my mother played from 5,800 yards par 71 with wooden heads back when there were real women. 

[Kalen Braley]

While I like where Jeff is headed with this in concept....I still think the old main stay is much simpler:


"Govern the balls used in professional tournaments and top level tournies....and let everyone else do whatever the hell they want"


If my buddy visits me from out of town and we both play the whites at a local classic venue, and he's 50-60 yards past me on every hole, does it really matter?


For that matter, If Bubba is playing with some members at Cypress in a pre tourney rub-and-tug and hitting driver wedge on every hole, while his hosts are giggling over his absurd drives, does it really matter?


Seems the solution is simple, even if the will to actually do it amongst the powers that be isnt....

[jeffwarne]

Ben:


We did just fine with three sets of tees before your generation started playing.


And FYI, the fifth set of tees is usually for guys a bit older than me, rather than for you.

Three sets worked great when 6700 yards was considered a long course, and 75 year old men didn't expect to reach greens in "regulation" yet still get a shot a hole

[jeffwarne]

While I like where Jeff is headed with this in concept....I still think the old main stay is much simpler:


"Govern the balls used in professional tournaments and top level tournies....and let everyone else do whatever the hell they want"


If my buddy visits me from out of town and we both play the whites at a local classic venue, and he's 50-60 yards past me on every hole, does it really matter?

Point 1: Don't we already do that? and I'm advocating just that exactly-except there are no shorter balls available-primarily because of all the resistance posed in this thread.
Point 2:That's perfectly fine, until you demand a shorter set of tees(or he a longer tee because he's laying up on every hole), you never speak due to different tees till you hit the green, and the handicaps become a cluster#$@% of adjustments for yardage, CR, and Slope.

[BCowan]

While I like where Jeff is headed with this in concept....I still think the old main stay is much simpler:


"Govern the balls used in professional tournaments and top level tournies....and let everyone else do whatever the hell they want"


If my buddy visits me from out of town and we both play the whites at a local classic venue, and he's 50-60 yards past me on every hole, does it really matter?

Point 1: Don't we already do that? and I'm advocating just that exactly-except there are no shorter balls available-primarily because of all the resistance posed in this thread.
Point 2:That's perfectly fine, until you demand a shorter set of tees(or he a longer tee because he's laying up on every hole), you never speak due to different tees till you hit the green, and the handicaps become a cluster#$@% of adjustments for yardage, CR, and Slope.

Jeff,


Not true Point 5 golf balls are for sale.  Bay island walking alliance posted it on one of the walking society pages


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1465225476891095&id=833056296774686

[James Brown]

Would be interesting and novel as a one time event, but golf fans are not gonna be interested beyond that.  It will feel like golf has gone back in time.  But we don't get Arnie and Jack and Ben back with it. 


Embrace the horror.  Distance is never going away for the pros. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


3 sets is awful, ladies championship/senior tee or short ladies tee gets axed. 


Tips
Mens
Ladies champ/senior
Ladies
 

Just don't put markers back on the tips.  Put the men's markers as a mix of the back tees and the senior tees, and voila!  That's how it was done until 1980 or '85.  IIRC, the TPC at Sawgrass only had three sets of markers when it opened.

[BCowan]

Tom,


I wouldn't be using Sawgrass in a partial sustainable thread, that's hilarious.  I totally disagree with u. 4 is the number. 4 Beatles, Final 4, 4 horsemen....   

[jeffwarne]

Would be interesting and novel as a one time event, but golf fans are not gonna be interested beyond that.  It will feel like golf has gone back in time.  But we don't get Arnie and Jack and Ben back with it. 


Embrace the horror.  Distance is never going away for the pros.

Disagree.
Golf will die if the venues continue to expand-which they will if equipment remains unchecked.
NO ONE would notice in two weeks if EVERYBODY switched tomorrow.
Which I'm not advocating.......
Amateurs are short every time they hit an iron anyway, and VASTLY overestimate how far they hit their driver.So it would be business as usual for them ,and the classics could stop being butchered;)


To Ben and Tom's discussion...
Couldn't you have 4 sets of markers, and use three tee pads per hole.
i.e on some holes the forwards share a tee pad with the second tee back, on others the 2nd and 3rd set share a tee pad, on others the 3rd and 4th share a tee pad. combined with maybe 2-4 holes that have way back tee pads.
Sustainability and everybody gets a trophy all rolled into one.
Nothing drives me crazier than the attempt to proportionately space out 5 -6 tees on a hole.
Not every hole has to be "fair" or proprtionate" for all. It can evenout over 18 holes witha little tee marker mix and match placement0and provide far more variety.---rather than every par 4 being 460,420,380, 350,300--that you see on every modern course


OR alternate balls
or both

[John Kavanaugh]

If I were ever so lucky to take batting practice at Fenway Park I would take it at home plate. Why would I choose to play golf, a game I have enjoyed for 50 years, be any different?