Courses that have not been altered.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan, you have been and are a member of two relatively intact Dr. Mac courses. Pretty nice.

It's a matter of geography Tom.


There are a dozen or more within an hour's drive that I could join for well under £1000 pa each.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know a few of my earlier courses decided to re-grass their bent greens to Bermuda, when better strains came along.  Some have mentioned softening contours when regressing for golfers.  I have seen greens leveled and changed during re-grassing just because no one thought to cal the original (or other) architect, and in essence the new contours were crafted by a tractor guy from the sod company, with no thought given to the design aspects.


There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I know a few of my earlier courses decided to re-grass their bent greens to Bermuda, when better strains came along.  Some have mentioned softening contours when regressing for golfers.  I have seen greens leveled and changed during re-grassing just because no one thought to cal the original (or other) architect, and in essence the new contours were crafted by a tractor guy from the sod company, with no thought given to the design aspects.


There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

I've been ruminating on this for the past few hours. Re-grassed greens change the course even when they try to keep the slope and undulations the same. When Sedgefield changed from Bent to Champion, the course played much differently. The greens firmed up and the speeds went up. At my age I get very little back spin and need to allow for some roll on the greens. I am no longer a member at the club but when the change happened my strategy for shots into the greens changed dramatically. I could no longer go after tucked pins but had to settle for shots that bounded into the greens. Because they could keep the greens quicker in the summer, I had to play more break on both shots into the greens and on the greens, which meant trying harder to leave the ball below the hole. Now for elite players who hit it hard the greens didn't make as much difference for for the average club player it did. I am curious to know if the average handicap went up.

[Jeff Loh]

The Orchards
South Hadley, MA

[MCirba]

Very true.  Some of the old holes at Sharp Park are now under the seawall, but most of the holes that still exist in the same spot have never been touched.  They were talking about building new USGA greens to "restore" it and I said, well, why don't we just mow them back out like they used to be, and see how people like that first?  (Sadly, committing to even that much is difficult for the SF Parks Dept.)


When there was a debate about an old bunker location, I asked for a shovel.  It's still there, only a couple of inches under the grass.

Tom,

Count me among the group who has never understood the need to replace push-up greens with USGA spec greens.   Most of the push-up greens I've seen have lasted decades and decades in good condition.   I've also yet to see a "restored" USGA spec green that looked or played like the original push-up green, but I'll keep looking.   People tell me the technology exists that should support such detail but...

[Tommy Williamsen]

The course at the resort where I live was designed around 1972 with push-up greens. We aerate and top-dress them twice a year and they have lasted very nicely. We don't get them super fast but at about nine. We lost a couple of them two years ago during the big rainy summer but they have grown back rather nicely. We seem to be able to keep them firmer than most USGA spec greens.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I meant to add this earlier in the thread.


In the UK there was hardly a course that wasn't 'altered' during WWW11. 


Links courses often had extensive defensive structures built on them in a great hurry.  Inland course often ploughed up the flattest third of their land and gave it over to agriculture.  I've read tens of Club Histories and this has been the case in every one I can recall.  None said that the membership waited until they had the funds and time to replicate what they had before. Most rushed to get the course back into play.


Duncan didn't Cavendish give over some land to the war effort?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan didn't Cavendish give over some land to the war effort?

I could check in my club history book but I lent it to a fellow GCAer and have never seen it again!


I'm pretty sure that the course was given over to sheep for the duration of the war.




Perhaps Sean could check... 


 

[mike_malone]

Rolling Green is pretty pretty close.  The routing is identical. The trees on the west side of the property are now in harmony with the original. Green sizes restored. Around 15 bunkers would need to be removed and a few moved. Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb did an amazing research job to identify discrepancies.


What fascinates me is that every original concept unveiled seems smarter than the change that was made.
For us now many of the changes left to undo took place very early before the 1930’s photos. We had assumed Flynn was responsible but a few years ago began to doubt that because of the work and no evidence that Flynn was involved.


I count around 10 changes made in the last 10/15 years and the same early on.

[Mark Mammel]

White Bear Yacht Club should be on the list of courses that "have not been altered"- though I think we really don't know where the original bunkers were. We have a 1915 topographic map from 1915 that shows the golf course- which didn't officially open until the next year- with the tees and greens, ridges and hills, ponds and hazards essentially in the same places as today's course, and the same par and yardage within a few yards. With the exception of 2 greens- 13, moved from a Dell position to a crowned green in 1952 for drainage, and the 8th green, which Tom Doak and Jim Urbina restored as best they could since the shot to the green had been changed by local golf committee "experts" in the '70's. Jim has worked with us for the past couple of decades and is an honorary member, and continues to help us restore the course to its original feel. Like many old clubs, this has mainly meant removing lots of trees.

[Greg Chambers]

I know a few of my earlier courses decided to re-grass their bent greens to Bermuda, when better strains came along.  Some have mentioned softening contours when regressing for golfers.  I have seen greens leveled and changed during re-grassing just because no one thought to cal the original (or other) architect, and in essence the new contours were crafted by a tractor guy from the sod company, with no thought given to the design aspects.


There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

I’ve never seen a sod company come in and change the contours of a green.  That’s hilarious!

[Tom_Doak]

There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

One reason I love Royal Melbourne is that when they regrassed the greens the last time, they propagated seed from the original greens on the East course (the original Suttons mix, evolved over decades), and used that to replace the Penncross they had put on the Composite course in the 80's.


They seemed plenty fast for today's players at the Presidents Cup . . . so all this stuff about needing new grasses to have great greens is b.s.


Unfortunately, they had messed with the contours of several greens in the conversion to Penncross, and there is no record of what the contours were before that.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know a few of my earlier courses decided to re-grass their bent greens to Bermuda, when better strains came along.  Some have mentioned softening contours when regressing for golfers.  I have seen greens leveled and changed during re-grassing just because no one thought to cal the original (or other) architect, and in essence the new contours were crafted by a tractor guy from the sod company, with no thought given to the design aspects.


There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

I’ve never seen a sod company come in and change the contours of a green.  That’s hilarious!

Not sure if you are implying I'm  liar or an idiot?  But, to clarify, yes, I have heard supers (or regional agronomists from big management companies) say its a great opportunity to shave a few inches, remove bumps in the middle of the green, etc.  As to the grass companies, at least in my experience, the tractor guy is taught to smooth and smooth he does.  One of my distinct 3 tier greens, 3 +/- 2% areas with 2 +/- 20% tiers in-between got dragged out to about 5% from to back (!) Many others have had rolls working in from the edge that got flattened at the edge of the green, and still another I can recall had very subtle ripples which got smoothed into one big flat areas. There are more, I'm sure.


To be sure, there are many famous clubs, proud of their greens, who grid them off and map them, and probably get them pretty close to what they were.  I just doubt that happens at average clubs or public courses across the US.

[SL_Solow]

We put in XGD before regrassing in part to avoid demands for USGA greens.  Drainage has been great and we didn't touch any contours. However, when some new greens were built under a different previous philosophy, they were built to USGA specs which makes for an interesting challenge for our Super.  He does a fine job making them play similarly.

[Jeff_Brauer]

No doubt that USGA play differently than topsoil with XGD. 


Or, that even a 5 year old sand based green plays and maintains differently than a 1 or 2 year old one, etc.  It is one case to be made against long term renovations where new greens mix is contemplated.


We often forget that the USGA green was developed mostly to avoid compaction, because in theory, sand doesn't compact.  Also, not a coincidence that sand based came into favor around the time automatic irrigation and pelletized fertilizers were becoming more reliable and widely used.


If you don't have them, other techniques had been developed prior to USGA greens and if play is low enough and climate favorable enough, they can last.  Shel, I'm guessing they have been core aerified regularly over the years, which reduces compaction and gradually converts a green to a higher percentage of sand?

[Paul Rudovsky]

In terms of "not altered", how about the men's locker room at Brookline 

[Greg Chambers]

I know a few of my earlier courses decided to re-grass their bent greens to Bermuda, when better strains came along.  Some have mentioned softening contours when regressing for golfers.  I have seen greens leveled and changed during re-grassing just because no one thought to cal the original (or other) architect, and in essence the new contours were crafted by a tractor guy from the sod company, with no thought given to the design aspects.


There probably are very few greens with original grass, if for no other reason that golfers like the new ones.  Thus, like it or not, a re-grassed green is probably a redesigned (if you call it that) green.

I’ve never seen a sod company come in and change the contours of a green.  That’s hilarious!

Not sure if you are implying I'm  liar or an idiot?  But, to clarify, yes, I have heard supers (or regional agronomists from big management companies) say its a great opportunity to shave a few inches, remove bumps in the middle of the green, etc.  As to the grass companies, at least in my experience, the tractor guy is taught to smooth and smooth he does.  One of my distinct 3 tier greens, 3 +/- 2% areas with 2 +/- 20% tiers in-between got dragged out to about 5% from to back (!) Many others have had rolls working in from the edge that got flattened at the edge of the green, and still another I can recall had very subtle ripples which got smoothed into one big flat areas. There are more, I'm sure.


To be sure, there are many famous clubs, proud of their greens, who grid them off and map them, and probably get them pretty close to what they were.  I just doubt that happens at average clubs or public courses across the US.

Sod companies lay sod.  To say a sod company alters contours is ridiculous...if they spend time altering contours, then they’re losing money.  I’ve been involved in a lot of golf course construction projects...not once have I seen a sod company come in and change grades.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Is it easier to retain a green's slope and undulations by laying sod or seeding?

[Ian Andrew]

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