[Joe Schackman]

With the dark days of winter on the horizon I want to spend more time reading architecture books as I stare longingly out the window. I've started to search around this site and others to figure out which books should be at the top of my list.

The Evangelist of Golf by George Bahto almost always gets mentioned. But it always comes with the caveat that the price is quite high on the secondary market (prohibitively high for me personally, unfortunately).

And I'm just wondering why (other than the obvious supply/demand reason). What is the story behind this book and if it is so well thought of and sought after why isn't another limited-run printed?

I've searched through what I could on here to try and answer my own question but I don't seem to be able to nail it down. From those searches it is clear that George posted on here and was very well liked and respected so I hope I'm not wandering into some awkward unspoken topic. I certainly mean no disrespect.

[Mike Hendren]

Joe, there simply aren't many great books on golf architecture written by a dry-cleaner and edited by an Armenian.  Oh, and it really is all that.

Bogey

[Joe Schackman]

Sorry I don't think I called out what I'm really asking. I'm asking why is it is so rare and why can't more be printed?

From reading people's opinions who have read it I can tell why the book and its author is so revered. My question is a bit more "in the weeds".

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not so sure the current owners of the book don't outnumber the potential new owners. Why drive down the value with a new issue?


It is sad to see what has happened to the value of the original Confidential Guide.

[PCCraig]

Joe,

There is a moral of the story which is to continually support good golf course architecture writing by buying the books when they are released!

[Joe Schackman]

Fair enough. Although, I was 14 years old when the book was first published. Golf architecture books weren't exactly on my radar  .

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
There is a very limited market for golf architecture books.  As such, only small quantities of books are printed at a time (at least that is the way it is with our publisher John Wiley & Sons, Inc.).  Once they sell out, there are/can be follow on printings but only if the publisher believes there is enough demand to justify one.  The small quantities also push the costs of the books way up which doesn't make the authors happy but there is little choice unless you publish it yourself.
Mark

[Tim_Cronin]

Mark is dead-on right about the limited market.


In the case of Bahto's book, it was published in 2002 by a company (Clock Tower Press) that had a brief life. It closed in 2005. Some of its titles were bought by John Wiley & Sons. A check of Wiley's online catalog doesn't show Evangelist among those titles, and further, Wiley doesn't appear to have issued any golf books since 2012, though many previous titles are still available.


Clock Tower owned/owns the copyright to Evangelist, so anyone interested in reprinting it would need to buy that, but today, if Wiley doesn't own it, from whom? Even if that is accomplished, add in the logistical nightmare of reassembling the original art (presuming the original technical files used to print the book no longer exist), then designing the book a second time – either to duplicate or improve on the original – and it becomes a maddening task that is also unlikely to turn a profit.


In this case, ebay or Abe Books is your best friend. Be patient and one will turn up at a price favorable to you. It did for me in the case of James Finegan's impossible-to-find history of Philadelphia golf. Got one at original price and mint condition!

[Bill Shamleffer]

Joe:


When searching on Google Books, for a specific book title, there is an option that will list what libraries have that book.  See if a nearby library has this book.  If not, check with your library about an interlibrary loan, to borrow this book.


Good luck.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark is dead-on right about the limited market.


In the case of Bahto's book, it was published in 2002 by a company (Clock Tower Press) that had a brief life. It closed in 2005. Some of its titles were bought by John Wiley & Sons. A check of Wiley's online catalog doesn't show Evangelist among those titles, and further, Wiley doesn't appear to have issued any golf books since 2012, though many previous titles are still available.


Clock Tower owned/owns the copyright to Evangelist, so anyone interested in reprinting it would need to buy that, but today, if Wiley doesn't own it, from whom? Even if that is accomplished, add in the logistical nightmare of reassembling the original art (presuming the original technical files used to print the book no longer exist), then designing the book a second time – either to duplicate or improve on the original – and it becomes a maddening task that is also unlikely to turn a profit.

Well explained, Tim.


The former owner of Clock Tower Press actually lives in Traverse City now, and helps me out with my own publishing ventures as a consultant.  He knows very well that there is a market for a few more copies of George's book, but the rights situation is in limbo and I don't know if he knows where all the artwork is.  [The printers might still have it, even this many years later.]


George B. was also working on a bigger book about Raynor, Banks and C.B. when he passed away, and there has been some conversation about trying to get it published ... but I have also seen the manuscript and there is a lot of work that would need to be done to finish it.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not so sure the current owners of the book don't outnumber the potential new owners. Why drive down the value with a new issue?


It is sad to see what has happened to the value of the original Confidential Guide.

Were you hoarding them or something?

[Joe Schackman]

Got it. Makes much more sense now. Thanks all.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not so sure the current owners of the book don't outnumber the potential new owners. Why drive down the value with a new issue?


It is sad to see what has happened to the value of the original Confidential Guide.

Were you hoarding them or something?

No, but I have given one to a young man who said he was not a magazine rater. As the value falls I am afraid he may convert.

[Tom_Doak]

Were you hoarding them or something?

No, but I have given one to a young man who said he was not a magazine rater. As the value falls I am afraid he may convert.

That would be SAD !

[Tim_Cronin]

Mark is dead-on right about the limited market.


In the case of Bahto's book, it was published in 2002 by a company (Clock Tower Press) that had a brief life. It closed in 2005. Some of its titles were bought by John Wiley & Sons. A check of Wiley's online catalog doesn't show Evangelist among those titles, and further, Wiley doesn't appear to have issued any golf books since 2012, though many previous titles are still available.


Clock Tower owned/owns the copyright to Evangelist, so anyone interested in reprinting it would need to buy that, but today, if Wiley doesn't own it, from whom? Even if that is accomplished, add in the logistical nightmare of reassembling the original art (presuming the original technical files used to print the book no longer exist), then designing the book a second time – either to duplicate or improve on the original – and it becomes a maddening task that is also unlikely to turn a profit.

Well explained, Tim.


The former owner of Clock Tower Press actually lives in Traverse City now, and helps me out with my own publishing ventures as a consultant.  He knows very well that there is a market for a few more copies of George's book, but the rights situation is in limbo and I don't know if he knows where all the artwork is.  [The printers might still have it, even this many years later.]


George B. was also working on a bigger book about Raynor, Banks and C.B. when he passed away, and there has been some conversation about trying to get it published ... but I have also seen the manuscript and there is a lot of work that would need to be done to finish it.

If the printers still have it, that would be a miracle. (Said the guy who now designs his own books and keeps digital files of the layout so they can be reprinted someday, after an earlier book went out-of-print after that book's printing company went out of business and nothing had been returned.)

[John Kavanaugh]

Why can't books be like art? I don't get the notion that everyone has the right to own even the finest offerings. How great would have the Harry Potter series been if only 10 copies of each book had been published?

[Jon Cavalier]

With the dark days of winter on the horizon I want to spend more time reading architecture books as I stare longingly out the window. I've started to search around this site and others to figure out which books should be at the top of my list.

The Evangelist of Golf by George Bahto almost always gets mentioned. But it always comes with the caveat that the price is quite high on the secondary market (prohibitively high for me personally, unfortunately).

And I'm just wondering why (other than the obvious supply/demand reason). What is the story behind this book and if it is so well thought of and sought after why isn't another limited-run printed?

I've searched through what I could on here to try and answer my own question but I don't seem to be able to nail it down. From those searches it is clear that George posted on here and was very well liked and respected so I hope I'm not wandering into some awkward unspoken topic. I certainly mean no disrespect.

You’re welcome to borrow mine, Joe. 


DM me your address if interested and I’ll send it along.

[Tim_Cronin]

Why can't books be like art? I don't get the notion that everyone has the right to own even the finest offerings. How great would have the Harry Potter series been if only 10 copies of each book had been published?

Writers like to eat and pay the rent.

[Ronald Montesano]

How great? Not at all. If the masses don't have access, the tree doesn't make a sound, even when its pages are turned.

Why can't books be like art? I don't get the notion that everyone has the right to own even the finest offerings. How great would have the Harry Potter series been if only 10 copies of each book had been published?

Writers like to eat and pay the rent.

[Kalen Braley]

Why can't books be like art? I don't get the notion that everyone has the right to own even the finest offerings. How great would have the Harry Potter series been if only 10 copies of each book had been published?

Totally agreed John.  Imagine home much better the world would be if every religious manuscript only had 10 copies as well!

[Keith Phillips]

Joe, I am downsizing and my copy of that book is on the list of items that won't make it to the next destination - I'd be happy to part with it for a price far more reasonable than those I've seen quoted.  Please PM me if interested.

[John Kavanaugh]

How great? Not at all. If the masses don't have access, the tree doesn't make a sound, even when its pages are turned.

Why can't books be like art? I don't get the notion that everyone has the right to own even the finest offerings. How great would have the Harry Potter series been if only 10 copies of each book had been published?

Writers like to eat and pay the rent.

The masses have access to most all of the great art in the world. They just don't get to own it. Do a little exercise in your head and name all the great artists and writers that you admire. Art wins with 99% of the masses...why?

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
Writers do like to eat and pay the rent, but you don't write a golf architecture book for the money.  You do it for every other reason but that.  Our book on bunkers has sold out multiple printings and fortunately Wliey keeps printing more but my wife jokes that when we get our royalty check every quarter, if we are lucky, we can go out for a nice coffee (and maybe a donut too)      It sure doesn't pay the rent!
Mark

[Tom Bacsanyi]

What about the publishers releasing only digital copies of rare books at decent prices?  That way the collector still has the much more valuable hard copy, but people that just really want to READ the book get to read it.  I desperately want to read Evangelist and maybe even more so the Claude Crockford book, but those are way out of my price range.  There's a copy of Evangelist on Ebay right now for a cool 800 or so.  Plus the publisher doesn't have to spend a ton of money printing the books.

[Tom_Doak]

What about the publishers releasing only digital copies of rare books at decent prices?  That way the collector still has the much more valuable hard copy, but people that just really want to READ the book get to read it.  I desperately want to read Evangelist and maybe even more so the Claude Crockford book, but those are way out of my price range.  There's a copy of Evangelist on Ebay right now for a cool 800 or so.  Plus the publisher doesn't have to spend a ton of money printing the books.

Publishers don't make any money off the books being $800 ... unless they can find a way to sell a few spare copies on eBay.  [I'm sure it has been done - not by me though.]  But if you put out a digital copy you are pretty much precluding ever going to a reprint.  Digital copies are just too easy to steal.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()