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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« on: September 25, 2017, 04:54:46 PM »
In an article regarding the renovation of Golden Horseshoe I quote Rees Jones:

"I think the wholesale removal of trees is a disaster"
"Somebody has to stop this absolutely insane trend of cutting down all the trees"

Most recently at Morraine the overwhelming benefit of massive tree removal is manifestly obvious and I have seen many other examples of similar results. I have regretted the removal of some of the trees at Victoria but applauded most of the felling.

What say ye. Can someone provide examples that support Jones? Is he shilling to the now in retreat Joyce Kilmer acolytes hoping for a counterattack to this dangerous fad?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 05:33:53 PM »
It has always been a source of complete mystery to me how an architect who is a member of and has been exposed throughout his life to some of the greatest places in the game shows very little of it in his own work.


It is through that prism that I view his comments.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2017, 07:53:45 PM »
I agree with him. I think some architects and clubs are taking this too far. The most recent removal of trees at Oakmont is a good example. All it did was open up views of the turnpike from 12 green and mounds were built to help mask the new sights and sounds.


These trees have always been here so it was not a historic revival.


Specimen trees or clusters of trees/vegetation provide some needed variety throughout the round and help you establish a sense of place that is sometimes missing on these new, wide open spaces.




Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 08:17:06 PM »
I agree with him. I think some architects and clubs are taking this too far. The most recent removal of trees at Oakmont is a good example. All it did was open up views of the turnpike from 12 green and mounds were built to help mask the new sights and sounds.


These trees have always been here so it was not a historic revival.


Specimen trees or clusters of trees/vegetation provide some needed variety throughout the round and help you establish a sense of place that is sometimes missing on these new, wide open spaces.

Bingo.

Words like "wholesale" and "all" are the key to understanding this thought.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 08:37:47 PM »
Yes, "wholesale removal" is very rare so there isn't much to argue about.  Considered tree removal which allows for better turf growth, opened playability & sight lines, opened interior/exterior views and showcasing specimen or unusual/beautiful trees/vegetation is all very good stuff. These are basic premises of design so far as I am concerned. 

Ciao
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ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 09:03:46 PM »
Touche Sean

The inference is that tree removal has gone to a wholesale level and that is bad. Considering that most tree removal is countering 60 years of benign neglect or memorial planting or arboreal fialty it is generally not wholesale but restoring at least a balance.

But I am keen to hear of systemic overreach: Broadmoor Indianapolis, Oakmont. Winged Foot, Morraine, Victoria National, not. Of course seaside links are not candidates for they never harbored trees but mostly courses carved out of either overplanted forest on previously open ground( Njorwiske in Holland) or original forest on ground receptive to links style design and allowed to migrate back to an arboretum status.

I don't doubt that Golden Horseshoe deserves the renovation Jones delivers but why does he rail against tree removal?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 10:12:44 PM »
Anything taken to an extreme is probably not good and that includes tree removal. 


If clubs use the same kind of logic (and often lack of golf architecture expertise) to remove trees as they did to plant them, well shame on them. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 10:39:47 PM »
Luckily for Rees, all he needs is 5 or 6 old-school committees/chairs to agree with him -- you know, the kind of low handicappers (relative to the rest of the membership) who are afraid that tree removal will make their course play too easy. In gca's version of "leave the gun, take the cannoli", Rees call tell them to "leaves the trees, move back the tees". And I don't mean any of this sarcastically. There's room enough -- indeed, it's good for everyone in the business that there is such room -- for all sorts of gca 'brands' and approaches; and, as Pat M never tired of telling us, club members have a right to do with their course just as they please (and this too, in the long run, is best for all involved.) Plus, just because Rees has maybe exaggerated a bit to make his point, let's not err in the other direction, ie with this talk of selective pruning, as if just under the surface of this current trend isn't a desire to get rid of all the trees and make every course look like Sand Hills or Mammoth Dunes, or at least like Oakmont. If it really was just about cutting down a few trees here and there to help turf and open up some sight lines, people in the business would've just gotten on with this (modest and humble) task instead of treating the idea as an ethical principle and the task as complicated as brain surgery.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:42:07 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 10:53:21 PM »
Maybe I just lack the experience and exposure, but I have never heard of a club majority regretting tree removal after the fact, whether the removal was individual, selective, en masse or wholesale.


Are there any examples of this occurring?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 11:21:44 PM »
The black and white thinking is what bothers me.  Taking down ALL the trees might have been the right call for Oakmont, but almost nowhere else.  But contrast that vs other clubs which refuse to cut any tree anywhere, even if they've got dead grass on the green because of shade and root issues.


Big trees add a great deal to the sort of northeastern parkland courses where Rees plies his craft.  But for every big, important tree those courses have five other trees that are doing nothing for the golf.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 06:02:42 AM »
In the rounds I have played at Mid Pines, i have concluded that a 30% to 50% tree removal would not compromise the look and feel to the course.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 07:22:00 AM »
Thoughtful tree removal is necessary in most instances because of thoughtless planting over decades. Too many trees planted too close to each other, or in areas where they affect turf grass health, access/egress into or out of hazards, etc. In every instance that I've observed (save Oakmont), thoughtful removal of trees that don't belong tends to highlight the ones that remain, while allowing sunlight and wind to do their job. Methinks Rees has overstated or misstated the issue.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 08:40:24 AM »
There is a certain humorous irony during the Autumn/Fall in watching the tree huggers looking for their balls in the leaves! :) And pretty soon it'll be 3 mins to find the 1.68" object rather than 5.
atb

Anton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 08:58:46 AM »

The best course of action lies in the middle.  Remove and thin trees where necessary but by all means be responsible stewards to the environment.  Massive removals overnight is not the right way.  There are clubs who have wiped out vast forests because it is 'the cool thing to do in architecture right now' so I see Rees's point..... in some instances.   
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 09:14:16 AM »



If it were the case that lots of courses were "cutting down all the trees," such that it constituted a "trend," that would probably be problematic. But how many courses have removed every single tree from their course? Probably not remotely enough for it to be considered a trend. So there's not much in common between these quotations and real life, is there?
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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 09:24:53 AM »



If it were the case that lots of courses were "cutting down all the trees," such that it constituted a "trend," that would probably be problematic. But how many courses have removed every single tree from their course? Probably not remotely enough for it to be considered a trend. So there's not much in common between these quotations and real life, is there?

The question isn't how many courses have, but how many courses have wanted to? What has it taken to talk them out of it?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

BCowan

Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 09:29:48 AM »

The best course of action lies in the middle.  Remove and thin trees where necessary but by all means be responsible stewards to the environment.  Massive removals overnight is not the right way.  There are clubs who have wiped out vast forests because it is 'the cool thing to do in architecture right now' so I see Rees's point..... in some instances.


Improving turf and using less chemicals is being good stewards of the land.  Grass needs water, sunlight, and food to prosper.  If u want an arboretum go to one.  It was the common sense thing back in the golden age, for many courses started out as open farm fields due to the expense and difficulties of tree removal back then


Parklands- Open land consisting of fields and scattered groups of trees. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 09:40:01 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BCowan

Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 09:36:02 AM »
In the rounds I have played at Mid Pines, i have concluded that a 30% to 50% tree removal would not compromise the look and feel to the course.


Agree completely, it would improve it drastically

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 09:44:56 AM »
Anton;  I am curious; which courses are you referencing?  I agree that clear cutting is rarely the answer but I haven't seen many examples.  Selective removal of trees  makes sense in many cases

Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2017, 10:02:31 AM »
The best example I have seen of this is Philly Cricket Club.  Got way overgrown, and they took out lots of trees, among other restoration work.  But what they LEFT was remarkable, as there are solitary gorgeous trees where there were clumps and groves.   Used to be you could not see the trees for the forest.  :)   Now, some of these trees literally stop you in your tracks as you can see their entire shape and canopy standing alone as sentrys, remarkable in their individual beauty, and still generally in strategic places for you to have to work around.   

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 10:09:26 AM »
Any examples of this, where it has been overdone?

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 10:53:18 AM »
It's probably been mentioned before somewhere, and I'm no expert on the exact guidelines, but over here in Germany (& most of central/western Europe I would guess) there isn't really a thing like tree removal, it's just not allowed. On my home course there is a green completely falling apart because it hasn't seen sunlight in a few years. Instead of chopping a few trees, it will have to be rebuilt in a different spot. It's a good thing trees and forests are protected in this densely populated country, but can be quite a nuisance if affected by it. What a shame the Rees Jones hasn't worked over here ;)


Would be interested in cases in which tree removal has been overdone, too...


Cheers





Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2017, 11:02:26 AM »
I just played Oak Hill (East) this past weekend. The member(s) I spoke with were very proud of their tree removal. The place looks like a forest compared to Oakmont and many other courses that have had wholesale tree removal. And, in the clubhouse at Oak Hill was this Donald Ross quote ... "Trees must be removed where they interfere, but ... not so many as to spoil the beauty of the course."
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 12:07:08 PM by Dan Boerger »
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2017, 11:20:25 AM »
The best example I have seen of this is Philly Cricket Club.  Got way overgrown, and they took out lots of trees, among other restoration work.  But what they LEFT was remarkable, as there are solitary gorgeous trees where there were clumps and groves.   Used to be you could not see the trees for the forest.  :)   Now, some of these trees literally stop you in your tracks as you can see their entire shape and canopy standing alone as sentrys, remarkable in their individual beauty, and still generally in strategic places for you to have to work around.

Very well stated.  The before and after at Cricket is something magical to behold.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones and tree removal insanity
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2017, 03:23:59 PM »
A recent post about trees and leaves on U.K. social media -


"Thought for the day.........'A large apple tree holds between 50,000 and 100,000 leaves. A normal birch may average somewhere around 200,000 leaves. An old oak tree can have 700,000 leaves. A mature American elm tree may have somewhere around 5 million leaves!'......and in the next two months we have to pick them all up!"


Atb