[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, what's the CBM quote you speak of?

Don't have the exact quote in front of me, but something to the effect that the best way to prepare bunkers for play was to run the cavalry through them.  Obviously, those days have changed!


I think its an interesting study of human behavior.  Started golfing in 1967.  Plugged and fried egg lies common, and strict instructions to minimize that by raking your bunker.  So, I sort of expect that to be the standard.  My son, starting golf in 1998 expected much more early, and any kid starting now will probably expect bunkers to be absolutely perfect as a matter of right.

[Justin VanLanduit]

Terry,
Shelly is correct; we installed in one fairway bunker a few years ago.  I have been utterly amazed at it's performance during heavy rains.  The bunker it was placed in was historically our worst; now no standing water, no washouts, and no contamination from material coming up from the bottom or from washouts.  Very pricey; this bunker was about 2000ft2 and cost us about 10k and we did a good amount of the work in-house. 
My question is what happens when it needs removed?  From my understanding it is given a 10-12yr lifespan.  Know places have gone beyond that.  What is the expense to remove and dispose?  Dig a hole and bury on the course?  With the polymer that is sprayed I'd assume you can't just take to a dump; has to be disposed of in a special manner. 
It's for sure taking off; lots of clubs are doing because of the savings in labor and bunker condition.  I guess the savings over the years from maintenance make up for the cost up front and possibly the cost of removal.


Justin

Our super Justin Van Landuit who posts here is better qualified.  We installed it in one bunker as an experiment.  It appears to work very well but it is expensive.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BBB pitches the simplicity of repair, and I have seen it at Cowboys GC here in DFW.  They pulled the sand out (for some reason, they had switched from white to a tan sand, and are now switching back) and when they exposed the BBB, they found a few small cracks and holes, which they tamped down and re-sprayed with the polymer.


It's not like the rocks are ever going to wear out, but I suspect a re-spray of polymers over the entire will eventually be necessary.

[Rick Lane]

Jeff, what's the CBM quote you speak of?

Don't have the exact quote in front of me, but something to the effect that the best way to prepare bunkers for play was to run the cavalry through them.  Obviously, those days have changed!


I think its an interesting study of human behavior.  Started golfing in 1967.  Plugged and fried egg lies common, and strict instructions to minimize that by raking your bunker.  So, I sort of expect that to be the standard.  My son, starting golf in 1998 expected much more early, and any kid starting now will probably expect bunkers to be absolutely perfect as a matter of right.

Our club did not do BBB but did put sod floors (grass side up) which seems to be performing well 5 years in.   Your point about newer players (and pros?) expectations is spot on.   I have to constantly remind my friends who complain about "inconsistent" bunkers, that they are a HAZARD, and that the banks of the creek on the course are not consistent either!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yeah, but the ponds are consistently level.....the waves may vary, but not to the extent that they affect play!

[PCCraig]

Interlachen CC here in Minnesota is doing a $1mln BBB project this fall. They are not redesigning the bunkers or changing their style, only installing the BBB product in all bunkers. I think the $1mln would of been put to better use restoring their golf course, but apparently bunker maintenance is very important to them.

[jeffwarne]

Interlachen CC here in Minnesota is doing a $1mln BBB project this fall. They are not redesigning the bunkers or changing their style, only installing the BBB product in all bunkers. I think the $1mln would of been put to better use restoring their golf course, but apparently bunker maintenance is very important to them.

ick...
sure hope it's crushed white rock

[Jim Sherma]

Hunt Valley GC in Maryland put in a form of Billy Bunkers in winter '15-'16. Not sure which of the specific versions, the work was done by Fry and Straka. According to the club they have performed great in terms of cost savings and performance. Even with significant rainfall events there are no wash outs.


For the first year there were a lot of plugged lies. This season the bunkers have played much better after they settled. The one issue that I've seen is some compression in the lowest spot of a couple of the bunkers. Makes it very difficult to get a sand wedge to properly interact with the sand as it is not hard pan but rather appear compressed and pasty. The rest of the bunker is perfect though. Some maintenance is probably required to keep this from happening. Not sure if this is unique to the site or a general maintenance issue with these types of bunkers.

[Rick Lane]

After our bunkers were redone with the white crushed rock (and sod floors, not BBB) at first they were very soft.   But by watering them in and letting nature takes its course, they became firm very quickly, and washouts are near zero.   Here we are 5 years later, and they have frankly just gotten better.  We have steep faces, and the side walls are firm and almost crusty, there are never plugged lies in the faces, the balls deflect down to the bottom.   We DO see a few bottoms getting "dense" as you say, but by power raking a few times a week, it is solved.   So now we just power rake the bottoms and leave the sides "crusty".   It all seems to work.....

[Brett Hochstein]

After our bunkers were redone with the white crushed rock (and sod floors, not BBB) at first they were very soft.   But by watering them in and letting nature takes its course, they became firm very quickly, and washouts are near zero.   Here we are 5 years later, and they have frankly just gotten better.  We have steep faces, and the side walls are firm and almost crusty, there are never plugged lies in the faces, the balls deflect down to the bottom.   We DO see a few bottoms getting "dense" as you say, but by power raking a few times a week, it is solved.   So now we just power rake the bottoms and leave the sides "crusty".   It all seems to work.....

Rick, what is the locale of your club (asking for climate understanding)?  Basically, how big can a rainfall event get, and how warm are the summers? 


I've been increasingly intrigued by sod liners (since I remain skeptical of the sprayed aggregate methods), and I'm curious to know how well they would do in warmer and wetter climates.  They seem to do well in the Pac Northwest and Canada, but what about hot, humid, and stormy regions?  Seems like washouts could be more frequent with higher rainfall rates, and deterioration of the sod would be faster due to heat and wetness increasing microbe activity and such. 


Interested to hear any thoughts from others as well.

[Rick Lane]

Southern CT.   Summers can be 80's a lot, 90's on and off in July/Aug, rarely 100, maybe a few days.

It can really rain (well, not like rain in Seattle), sometimes an inch or two in a 24 hour burst.   Or heavy T storms, 1/2 inch real fast.    Very rare now to have washouts....

[Steve Lang]

The WCC's 27 hole Palmer course put them in this last year and they are great... and now putting them in on Tournament and Player courses.  Were in play a week after Harvey's 27 inches of rainfall!

[Forrest Richardson]

Now in my fifth year using the BBB method. Not everywhere, but I would say 90%.

For me, I cite four very important reasons BBB works and has a good ROI:

1 ... It separates the native soils from the sand 100%, which in Arizona, California and many Western states and areas is essential to prevent rocks and blending of the two distinct ingredients; where an un-lined bunker or a bunker with a soft liner may have to be re-worked in 6-7 years — except for replacing sand, a BBB bunker will probably last 20+ with the ONLY maintenance being sand replacement

2 ... With a hard liner you never have to guess at sand depth; we have inherited bunkers with 4-5 feet of sand depth because the club just kept, over the years, adding and adding sand; with BBB there is NO guesswork as you have with soft liners (fabric) or no liners, you simply probe the bunkers and buy as much new sand as you need — no more

3 ... The bunker shape is also set in stone (pun) — migration of bunker edges with BBB has to be purposefully changed as opposed to changed at the hands of staff

4 ... Drainage is virtually fool-proof because the porous polymer/stone layer serves to move water both laterally AND vertically toward the low/drain point(s) of each bunker — if anything, we are getting "The bunkers are too dry..." comments, which I find ironic


Most important is to realize that BBB, in most areas where gravel aggregate is readily available, will not exceed the cost of other liner types. While I have used other liners (fabrics and sprays) I am pretty much of the opinion that when a liner is called for, this is the best method...I know how long rock lasts, and I trust the polymer because similar polymers are used in other architectural industries.

When do we NOT use any liner? When there are virtually NO rocks in the native soils and we are confident that the native soils will stay put and not heave or become expansive below the sand. Del Rio CC in Modesto CA is one such place. The site is mostly fine sandy soil, and it is stable. The sand used in the bunkers has proven stable with very few issues in forming a soupy mix with the sand and soils "becoming one" after time.


P.S.  I am not sure TD's comment is crass...maybe just a bit  snarky. What I take exception with is the notion that it lines the pockets (pun) of builders. Contractors likely make more money preparing subgrades of UNlined bunkers (all labor) as opposed to simple finishing the floors and spreading products that they have to procure. A mark-up per s.f. is not as rewarding as labor per s.f.

[Jack Carney]

Eighteen months ago we redid all the bunkers at Cedar Ridge with the BBB. Not only did they allow for improved design with exposed faces but saved us $65M in 2017 maintenance. They will pay for themselves (complete cost) in a just 7 or 8 years.


In my opinion Tom is never crass, just a free thinker

[Forrest Richardson]

"Free thinker" is a nice way to soften one's crassness. Or snarkyness.

[Mike_Young]

Hmmmm....and perhaps TD was "dead on" for most courses.  I go back the Ping Anser putter.  Did Scotty Cameron make the Anser putter any better by running thru a CNC machine and giving it a milled face?  Nope.  Did not help the game of golf one bit but it did create a market for $350.00 putters and putter covers where there never used to be.  When close to half the shots in a round are used on the green then it is fine to put forward the best greens one can but when less than 5% of the shots in a round are from sand and we spend close to as much on bunkers as we do greens then something is wrong...ok for the few but not for most....IMHO...

[Terry Lavin]

Well, after due deliberation, I hope my club doesn’t make the investment in BBB. It just costs too much money and my club has always been frugal. I hope we go back to the tan sand which better suits a classic course. And at half the price, I think.

[Forrest Richardson]

Terry - What makes you think it costs a lot of money? The ROI, depending on your soils and how often you want to re-build bunkers, can make it a very worthwhile investment. The BBB method does not cost (usually) more than any other type of liner system. In some locales, less. This is why clubs need professional advice. Have you read this thread ... or just bits of it??? This is, after all, your topic dude 

[Forrest Richardson]

I missed young Brett's post where he notes he is "....skeptical of the sprayed aggregate methods." Why Brett? What makes you skeptical of a polymer sprayed on crushed aggregate? Are you concerned the rock will break down...let's say, in 2 or 3 million years? Or, that the polymer — likely similar to the stuff Outback Steakhouse uses to seal their wooden tables — will somehow fade away beneath the sand?

[Greg Chambers]

Forrest...you sound like you’re slinging the product.

[Terry Lavin]

I know there aren’t a lot of cash cows out there in the golf business, but this one seems to be doing well. They started with the Billy Bunker then the Better Billy Bunker. I suppose in a few years it’ll be the Best. This talk about ROI (which sounds like the gca version of trickle down economics 😅) is above my pay grade but the BBB just seems too expensive to me.

[Forrest Richardson]

Greg — No slinging, but I do believe it has a place for many sites, especially those, as noted, where we have rock in the native soils that cannot be prevented from migrating upward...without a HARD liner that will not give way. I'm in my 32nd year as a golf course architect, and have seen a lot of bunker renovation work...including having to re-do my own work! I suppose to be fair, if you think "recommending" when the application for BBB is right amounts to slinging, then I suppose. But truthfully, all GCAs recommend, whether it be turf, soil plating, native grass selection, sand types, etc.  Everything we import to a golf site (and even the stuff we shift around) comes with a cost. And all this comes with a sales force behind it, whether it be the guy who sells sand, the woman who markets native seed, or the huge corporation who provides irrigation components.

[Pete_Pittock]

Our 20 year old Fought course (The Reserve Vineyards-South) had the bunkers redone with BBB.  1.5 million. But the number of bunkers was cut nearly in half (114/59) and cut the square footage in half from 200,000 to 100,000. Maintenance costs will be way down and probably will pay for themselves in time.  Played there today for the first time in over a month, and the bunkers were in great condition with no washouts after a week's worth of rain. Can't say the same for the North course. Now if I can just make them less fluffy.

[Brett Hochstein]

I missed young Brett's post where he notes he is "....skeptical of the sprayed aggregate methods." Why Brett? What makes you skeptical of a polymer sprayed on crushed aggregate? Are you concerned the rock will break down...let's say, in 2 or 3 million years? Or, that the polymer — likely similar to the stuff Outback Steakhouse uses to seal their wooden tables — will somehow fade away beneath the sand?

I guess I'm skeptical for a few reasons. How long it will actually work, what you do when it doesn't, being so bound to the end product, etc.


What is currently the oldest BBB out there, what climate is it in, and is it showing signs of wear?  How long can you go just respraying and fixing the cracks until they become irreparable?  When these things break down and it is time to replace or change the bunkers, what do you do with the material waste if there is no place on site for a bury pit?  Rent a bunch of dumpsters with daily pickups?  Is there any potentially negative environmental issue with the polymers?


Even though I want stuff that I build to be well-preserved, I still feel a little uneasy about being so "locked in" to a shape or edge line. What if there is an opportunity/need to expand or alter a bunker, such as what was recently decided to do on the 6th hole at Santa Ana following additional tree removal?  In that case, we didn't need to change the original floor too much to make it work, but if we did, which is common, it would have been a much more serious undertaking to make these adjustments with a BBB type system. 


Regarding shaping, you have to make your edges an additional 6-10 inches deep to account for the aggregate and minimal required sand coverage of at least 4 inches (I usually like to taper to ~2 inches sand coverage at the edge on flashed faces).  That extra depth makes it a bit harder to get your final shown edge depth right, especially if you like to vary the thickness of the lip, which I think gives a nice natural look. 


Maybe I'm just a traditionalist, but stuff like this just sort of feels like another level of departure from the earliest versions of golf and greenkeeping.  It's extra industrialization of golf, which I'm not really all for despite technically working in the golf "industry."


I'm really not trying to bash the product (my questions above are genuinely inquisitive), and I think is has great utility in certain situations.  It really is good to have an option like this available, because some courses and situations could really use it.  It just also seems like it might be excessive in many other cases. 

[Steve Lang]

Do you use plastic pipe with holes or slots for drain tile or still clay tile?


Do you use geo-textiles wrapped around your drain pipes?...

[/size]or graded porous/permeable materials in your bunker channels or just lay things on in the dirt and top with sand?[size=78%]


The BBB's use of Dow ST-410 acrylic emulsion offers such an easy spray application and then is essentially inert to water and will be un-phased by UV light once it drys and sets in 24 hours, very practical approach just essentially glueing the pea gravel together where it touches, allowing smaller than sand grade sized pores to allow good permeability, and the polymer should easily last for decades... unless you're driving trucks through the bunkers


... and it'd be non-hazardous waste if you ever removed it, likely no bigger deal than when old sand was removed..

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