Two holes at Fox Chapel

[TEPaul]

I was out on a tour of Fox Chapel G.C. (Pittsburgh) today with the man who ran the Silva restoration project for the club and the superintendent (as well as Bill Dow from Merion).

We were primarily looking at area on the course, particularly at the approaches, to expand fairway to take some of the heat off members who're having problems recovering from some of the near vertical faced Raynor bunkers that have been restored recently by Brian Silva. You might call this finding more fairway area to play away from some of these architecturally penal bunkers.

But the purpose of this thread is to describe two holes--the incredible Biarritz #17 and the apparently original green and green-end of hole #9!

First #9. This green and green-end at present has a big Raynor style bunker up into the hillside at the front of the green on the left and also a bunker front right on the other side of a sort of berm that starts at the back of the green and ends around near the front right. This sort of berm-like affair surrounds one of the coolest looking diagonal internal green ridge's I've ever seen in the rear green-surface!!

The point is that green apparently had no bunkers on either side of the green originally--just slopes on either side of the green and green front that filtered a ball from left to right on the left front and from right to left on the right front onto the green surface. But the wonderfull thing is this green had a small almost pot shaped bunker smack in the middle of the entrance and apparently almost touching the front of the green.

The hole is about 400 yards and this set-up at the green and green front offers really interesting options--to play an aerial shot over this small fronting bunker onto the green or to filter a run-in shot around it on either side--thereby catching either slope (more like wings really) and filtering the ball onto the green sort of arc-like.

The member tells me that this green with this original set-up used to be called the "Lion's Mouth"! It's one of the neater more unique green and green-end set-ups I've ever seen and I told him it should definitely be restored it's so unique and cool. If GeorgeB sees this thread he will chime in as he's aware of this original Raynor hole at Fox Chapel and may be aware of another Raynor "Lion's Mouth" somewhere else. My appreciation for Raynor original holes just increased bigtime!

[TEPaul]

The Biarritz (#17) is really something to see and last year when I was there they were just beginning to recapture green-space in front of the swale. The interesting aspect of this hole is the enormous side bunkering running down either side of the green. The bunker on the left now ends at the swale but the original bunker formation in front of the swale on the left is still there although all in grass. The bunker on the right has been partially graded over in the front.

But an old probably 1930s aerial show these two bunkers hooking and pinching in on both sides at the front! This is something I'd not seen before on a Biarritz and creates a number of interesting options for approach shots as well as some interesting front pin positions on either corner of the front.

If Fox Chapel chose to take the greenspace in front of the swale back towards the tee a bit and start it exactly where the fronts of the two side bunkers start (as I believe it should be and was designed to be) this green would be a full 80 yards long and would make it the same length as The Creek's amazing island Biarritz with green-space in front of the swale.

I said this Biarritz was originally so cool and unique that it too should be completely restored in every way! What makes this one additionally interesting is the way those two side bunkers sort of hooked and pinched in at the green front!

I feel if these two holes were totally restored to original they both would be talked about far and wide and Fox Chapel would definitely benefit in architectural circles.

[George_Bahto]

Tommy - I spend a few days at Fox Chapel a couple weeks ago to give a slide show/presentation and a book signing at the behest of the club.

They are a wonderful group from the president on down to the staff and I had a wonderful time.

I had the time to go over the course in detail and there are a number of features on the course that were very interesting indeed.

The most interesting hole to me, as you mentioned, is the great (huge) punchbowl green on hole-9.

Unfortunately, over the years, they took away the "Lion's Mouth" bunker you spoke about. This "thing" was right smack in the middle of the entrance to the green and had, as it typically did on holes Raynor built like this, two "wings" of green on either side of this great bunker that would have been treated as putting surface. The bunker is gone, replaced by two nice bunkers on each side of the approach - interesting and nice looking but they lost the great feature of the hole!

I spoke to the Dave Carson (super) and Mark Hellsler (their pro) at length about this hole and included some of the info in my "talk."

I'd put that hole back as original in an instant!!!!!!!!!

I also talked about mowing patterns and widths of fairways with them.

The Biarritz:  Tom, that bunkering you saw on the 30's aerial is exactly the way Raynor drew Biarritz green complexes - two long strip bunkers down each side (relative to local topo) pinching in the front of the "front" section of the green dramatically - and more often than not, the left strip bunker would pinch in more than the one on the right. I have dozens of original drawings that show this as well as a green blueprint that Banks made for the Oneck course at Westhampton CC. Fox Chapel's early photo also showed the crossbunker that was often put in to "represent" the area where the Bay of Biscay ended on the original hole in france (BBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOO: france (small "f").

A lot could be done there and may be.........

Yes, the bunker faces are entirely too steep! On a couple, the super can't even keep the sod from falling off (#15 & #8).

The short par-4 5th could be one of the best holes on the course.

......   but that ridge running thru the punchbowl 9th is gorgeous.

Where else do I know of the use of the Lion's Mouth bunke by Raynor/Banks? Not many Tom - the great 16th at CC of Charleston (like, 445 or so)is a wonderful example and I have another one here at Essex County CC where I have been restoring bunkers - their great 14th hole (this one about 360-yds) - this one a short, raised punchbowl green on a short par-4. This green is actually in a figure 8 with the huge ridge coming out of the punchbowl mounding and running thru the green. One of my favorite holes.

Fox Chapel has the making of something special if a few important features were to be renewed.

As I stated, a great membership and a very interesting piece of property - I had a great couple of days there. Prior to that I hadn't been there for about 6 yrs or so ........  at that time it was less than impressive. They've come a long way.

[Willie_Dow]

As I said, as a followup to your comments, what a great course for the firm and fast concepts.

Drainage is the question.  And it can be solved, IMHO>

[TEPaul]

"Fox Chapel has the making of something special if a few important features were to be renewed."

George:

I completely agree and it seems to me the restoration committee and my friend there is definitely interested in hearing any of this kind of feedback. Obviously, like any golf club there is concern there as to how certain things will be received and viewed by the membership (certainly most importantly including playability) but these two holes mentioned (and a few others) either are very near to ideal and special or show the potential to be something truly unique and special in architecture if restored---and restored totally!

Thanks for the info on the hook or pinching in on SOME Raynor Biarritz bunkering in front. It doubt it would take much to prove to the membership the numerous ways something like that restored could play really cool in a variety of ways!

[George_Bahto]

I think my talk stirred up a lot of feelings about the history of the course and the original layout. It was well received. Hope it helps them think about what they had.

[Forrest Richardson]

It is a wonderful experience...from beginning to end. The restored bunkers are amazing, even though some are over the top in terms of slope.

[George Pazin]

What additional special features would you recommend, if I may ask? If it's not okay to discuss work in progress, no problem.

I have a good number of pre and post renovation shots of FC. The pre shots are the publicity photos in the Curtis Cup program, the post shots are ones that I took during the CC. Any volunteers for hosting my photos?

Hard to imagine a luckier city than Pittsburgh, with two amazing clubs like Oakmont & Fox Chapel.

[Brad Swanson]

George,
   I'll gladly host your pics.  See your PM for the address to send the pics to.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

You are correct that the restoration work by Brian Silva is wonderful at Fox Chapel.  The only negative to FC is that it is incredibly overtreed.  On our visit we were told about laws in the borough(?) of Fox Chapel that make it nearly impossible to cut down trees.  However, as it was explained to us, a 'micro-burst' (mini-tornado) took down some 225 or so trees this summer.

I concur with those that told us there that FC could "use a few more microbursts."  

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Brad - I'll try to send them over the weekend.

Paul -

I didn't think it was incredibly overtreed & I am generally in favor of no trees at all. I'd call it more middle of the road for parkland courses - way more than someplace like Oakmont, but way less than someplace like Medinah. It didn't look like they really came into play, but that could be because the women in the Curtis Cup hit it so straight!

[GeoffreyC]

Tom Paul-  get a camera already.  We love your concise   reviews and writing but the combo would be unbeatable.

George-  I'll gladly host your photos if Brad runs out of space or if you need another helper.

[TEPaul]

GeoffreyC:

I've had a wonderful digital camera for about a year--quite expense little one at that--but unfortunately I don't have the vaguest idea how to use it!    

[TEPaul]

To be honest, I've never really known what to think about Seth Raynor's unique style of architecture or let's just say his highly unique "architectural aesthetic."

I think of Raynor courses in two basic contexts--how they play and how they look. I've played Fox Chapel maybe over ten years ago in a state amateur (which was before I got interested in architecture) and to be honest I don't remember that the architecture was particularly engineered looking in a sort of radical way. But I think I can say that if I'd played it now and still had no interest in architecture I could hardly miss the extreme engineered look of Fox Chapel--of Raynor, or perhaps I should truthfully say the Silva restoration style of Raynor.

From the Silva restorations of both Mountain Lake and Fox Chapel one might say that those Silva restorations look like Raynor on steroids or Raynor's basic "engineered look" really highlighted.

GeorgeB may not agree with that exaggerated Raynor restoration look but after yesterday I've decided I really like it--a lot!! I like the look of it and of course I've always liked the way Raynor courses played!

But with this kind of almost exaggerated Silva Raynor restoration style and look the playability is one of a much more exaggerated thin margin for error--which is basically incredibly slim. The architectural "lines" are clean (basically very close cropped blue grass on the bunker surrounds and vertical faces--for obvious reasons!) and consequently the margins for error are very slim--like maybe even inches between death and glory! I sort of like that as it creates a sort of randomness to the play of it and also the likelihood of the idea of "unfairness" presenting itself at any time! I like that while acknowledging that many members of these clubs may not like that at all. The course is clean, the architectural lines really sharp, the agronomy very close cut and sharp too and so this type of slim margin for error is all accomplished through architecture!!

I never really could figure out what to make of the look of Raynor's "architectural aesthetic"--but if an architect had a style like that--basically highly engineered looking I think the Silva type of restoration which basically even exaggerates that radical look makes it even better.

From being just vaguely fascinated by the look of Raynor previously, as of yesterday and Fox Chapel (and also Mountain Lake earlier this year) I think I've finally decided I really do like that style and "architectural aesthetic" and a lot.

But also admitting that that style is about as different as a style can get from another architect I probably like the "architectural aesthetic" of the most---Alistair Mackenzie!

The styles of those two have got to be at either end of the architectural style spectrum!

I look at the "look" of Mackenzie's architecture as the greatest example of naturalism in architecture only slightly stylized but I look at Raynor's "look" as almost an abstraction of architectural principle!

[George Pazin]

The pictures are on their way to Brad - thanks for the offer Geoff, I'll send 'em to you if Brad's space doesn't work out.

The pictures are less dramatic than I remembered - guess I was actually remembering the actual image in my head & not my mediocre photos. At any rate, some of the actual bunker shots show the dramatic differences, particularly the photos of hole #14 - the difference between 14 pre & post look pretty exemplary of the rest of the restoration, IMO.

Please ignore the fingers in the photos - I was using a tiny disposable camera! I'd crop 'em out, but that might cut out other stuff, so I'll just suffer the embarassment - what I won't do for GCA.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

I find it very interesting that both you and Pat have purchased digital cameras and neither of you is posting photos.

I think you both like to "hear yourself" writing more  

[GeoffreyC]

George Pazin asked me to post some of his photos of Fox Chapel.  He can comment further-

14 green back side


14 green left bunker


14 pre (restoration?)


15 green from left


17 pre


18 pre


4 tee


5 fairway from green


5 green from fairway


6 pre


7 pre

[GeoffreyC]

more photos from George

alps approach


alps mounds


alps green


biarritz from right front


biarritz from side


biarritz from back right


biarritz from front right green


redan approach


redan back bunker


redan from right


restored 2nd bunker on 18


short 11 left side


short 11 right side

[TEPaul]

Whoa, that's some aerial shot of Fox Chapel's biarritz. See all that greenspace in the front? If I'm not mistaken I think they've now dropped a bit of the very front of that greenspace. But that aerial can show clearly the way I think that hole might have been designed and how I believe it should be restored.

See the way the old bunker formation on the left hooks in at the front. The same was true of the bunker on the right but that's been graded over now.

I think Fox Chapel should restore the front half of the right bunker and fill the left front half of the left one in with sand and start the greenspace just behind where those two bunkers used to hook in in the front.

It's amazing what aerials can show what you don't really notice on the ground. See that depression right in front of the greenspace on that aerial? That's the old "fore" bunker that originally went with this Biarritz design. They should restore that "fore" bunker then have fairway running up to where the right and left bunkers hook in and then start the front of the front section greenspace there.

Imagine the variety and playability of that hole and all the interesting pin positions and club selections you could create with that behemoth green!

Fox Chapel should go for that. Who else has a hole with that kind of awesome potential? I probably shouldn't mention greenspace square footage because that might scare someone but I make it around 20,000 with that kind of restoration. Actually the greenspace in that aerial is probably more like 22,000sf!!

[George Pazin]

Thanks, Geoff. Next beer is on me.

If you right click on any photo & choose the properties function, you can see that I saved the photos with names that are somewhat explanatory.

The first 3 photos are of the 14th green. The first 2 are as of last August, post restoration, the 3rd photo is from the Curtis Cup program & is pre restoration. You can see the pretty dramatic difference in the banks and depths of the bunkers.

The 4th photo is of the 15th green from the left side. I chose this one because of the extreme difference from the back tier to the front. Unfortunately, it doesn't look all that impressive in the photo - but it is in person, trust me.

The 5th & 6th photos are also from the program, pre restoration. I tried to get a good photo of bunkers that were renovated to the right of the 18th fairway. I think the 10th photo in the second batch is the one I'm thinking of. Again, it was more impressive in person - sorry, I'm not much of a photographer.

The redan photos & biarritz photos are pretty self explanatory, other than I should point out the individuals in the photos to get an idea of the scale of the swale behind the redan and the swale in the biarritz. The redan looks like a NASCAR bank in person, it is huge. I should also point out that the area in front of the biarritz swale was indeed being maintained as greenspace for the Curtis Cup - I think the esteemed Tom Paul doubted me when I reported this last summer.

I took some photos of the Alps hole - they're the first 3 photos of the second bunch. I have to admit, this Alps wasn't what I was expecting in person & the mounds don't really do much to make the approach as blind as I thought it was supposed to be.

[George Pazin]

The bottom 2 photos are the short hole, obviously. I think I tried to shoot them side by side so you could actually patch them together, but I could be wrong in this recollection. After reading so much about the famed contours of the Short at NGLA, I was expecting a little more from this Short. I don't remember it looking as huge in person as it looks in those photos to me.

The 8th & 9th photos of the first set are of the 5th hole, from behind the green & looking at the green. I thought this was one of the most interesting holes at Fox Chapel. As you can see (beyond my damn fingers) it requires an aerial approach - those bunkers are pretty deep, too.

Not exactly sure why I took the photo from the 4th tee. It is a drive you see all over western PA, up over a ridge, though most courses don't incorporate the right to left cant of the fairway - I guess that's why I shot it. I think it's kind of cool that the fairway looks like it is going to kick your tee shot into the bunkers on the low side.

[GeoffreyC]

George

Sorry for the lack of captions before.  I had to get to a meeting.

Some of these restoration changes look almost like caricatures of Raynor.  To be sure they are infinitely better then the Yale bunkers but some are almost upsetting to the eye, too linear. THe same with the swale in the biarritz. Was that redone or was it always like that?

The course looks like a blast to play but those changes look different from bunkers I've seen at NGLA, Piping Rock, Creek, Yeamons Hall or the ones redone by George Bahto at Essex CC. Any thoughts?

[George Pazin]

Geoff -

Thanks for adding the captions. Tom Paul characterized the work as Raynor on steroids. To be honest, it's the only Raynor work I've seen, so I can't compare it to the other courses you metioned. Hopefully the more informed George will chime in & let us know.

[TEPaul]

"I should also point out that the area in front of the biarritz swale was indeed being maintained as greenspace for the Curtis Cup - I think the esteemed Tom Paul doubted me when I reported this last summer."

George:

No, I didn't doubt you on that since I was there and played the course about ten days before the Curtis Cup. The only thing I even remotely doubted was whether or not there was greenspace in front of the swale on that green originally. I assume there was originally greenspace there primarily because I'm almost 100% convinced that basically original greenspace on any biarritz started where the bunkering started and that can be quite different from Biarritz to Biarritz. The only other reason I had some doubt is because the greenspace on #17 doesn't appear to show up on a quite early aerial.

[TEPaul]

The basic (Raynor) architectural look, "lines", the ultra squared off angles of many of the bunker features etal of Fox Chapel is very similar in look and feel to Mountain Lake G.C in Lake Wales Florida. Most of the reason for that is obviously both courses have recently been restored by Silva. Some say the look is more severe than anything Raynor may have done and that may be true but as I said in the first post of this thread I really have come to like that Raynor/Silva restoration look a lot despite its ultra severity. It may be a bit of a caricature of the highly engineered Raynor look but I like it anyway.