DeVries Vs Hanse...original work

[corey miller]

I have been quite impressed with both guys restorative work.  I like them both personally and am a little disappointed I have yet to play much of their original work.  Question started with some GCA geeks where I asked which course they preferred Boston Golf or Kingsley.

Recognizing we all have different tastes, even when it comes to superior work... was wondering if someone who has played more than a few designs of both could contrast?

Hopefully in the near future I will actually be able to participate.

[Jay Mickle]

I look forward to playing the new Pinehurst number for when it is done next year

[BCowan]

Cory,

Nice thread.  I'm probably one of the few to play all 5 on Mike's US courses that are in Michigan, curious if any others have too.  I'll rank them in order.  I haven't played any Hanse courses and judging by seeing some of his plans at Lookout Mtn and what he did with Doral I'm not super eager, except Rustic Canyon.  He has many more courses in his US resume, below.  I'm curious to those Hanse fans how they would rank his work?  from the web at the bottom.  What I find impressive with Mike's work is the diversity of course types and models he has with the 5 MI courses.  His green designs vary from designs which is impressive.  Greywalls having more crowned edges and Kinglsey having more internal contouring.   

DeVries (my rankings)

Kingsley
Greywalls

Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run

The Mines
 
Hanse

• Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Pennsylvania (1998)
• South Fork Country Club, Amagansett, New York (1999)
• Applebrook Golf Cub, Malvern, Pennsylvania (2001)
• Rustic Canyon Golf Course, Moorpark, California (2002)
• French Creek Golf Club, Elverson, Pennsylvania (2004)
• Boston Golf Club, Hingham, Massachusetts (2005)
• The Vineyard Club, Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (2015)
• Mossy Oak Golf Club at Old Waverly, West Point, Mississippi (2016)
• Streamsong Resort - Black Course, Bowling Green, Florida (2017)
• LA CC  South

[Matt Bielawa]

L.A. South is an original Hanse design?  I know his website says this, but is that a fair claim? 

[Stephen Davis]

L.A. South is an original Hanse design?  I know his website says this, but is that a fair claim?

Yes, it was a complete redesign. He and his team did a lot with a very small property, and the final product came out really well. There are many very wonderful and unique golf holes out there.

[BCowan]

Okay, I just corrected it. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Both Capstone and Tallgrass are NLE!

[Tom_Doak]

Gil's resume left off the Rio course?

[Steve Salmen]

I think he meant US courses only because Craighead was also missing.

[Rees Milikin]

Cory,

Nice thread.  I'm probably one of the few to play all 5 on Mike's US courses that are in Michigan, curious if any others have too.  I'll rank them in order.  I haven't played any Hanse courses and judging by seeing some of his plans at Lookout Mtn and what he did with Doral I'm not super eager.  He has many more courses in his US resume, below.  I'm curious to those Hanse fans how they would rank his work?  from the web at the bottom.  What I find impressive with Mike's work is the diversity of course types and models he has with the 5 MI courses.  His green designs vary from designs which is impressive.  Greywalls having more crowned edges and Kinglsey having more internal contouring.   

DeVries (my rankings)

Kingsley
Greywalls

Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run

The Mines
 
Hanse

• Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Pennsylvania (1998)
• South Fork Country Club, Amagansett, New York (1999)
• Applebrook Golf Cub, Malvern, Pennsylvania (2001)
• Rustic Canyon Golf Course, Moorpark, California (2002)
• French Creek Golf Club, Elverson, Pennsylvania (2004)
• Boston Golf Club, Hingham, Massachusetts (2005)
• The Vineyard Club, Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (2015)
• Mossy Oak Golf Club at Old Waverly, West Point, Mississippi (2016)
• Streamsong Resort - Black Course, Bowling Green, Florida (2017)

What about Hanse's Lookout plans were you not impressed with?

[Don Mahaffey]

Does anyone ever make the argument that Rustc Canyon is Gil's best work? I've seen some of his more recent work and it is very good, very polished. Rustic Canyon had soul, edgyness, took some chances.   What has he built lately that stokes those cords? I haven't seen much of his portfolio. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having played Kingsley and Rustic Canyon, the sophistication of angles of attack at Rustic elevates it way above Kingsley.  Those who love Kingsley's greens, can find its equal in Rustic. Rustic is the rare course where top level pros and high handicap players can experience different challenges, but can end up scoring to their handicap. So far this year, the well regarded skins game has had a winning low gross score from 70 to last week, where a 62 edged out a 63, but a 12 handicapper claimed one of three skins.

[BCowan]

Cory,

Nice thread.  I'm probably one of the few to play all 5 on Mike's US courses that are in Michigan, curious if any others have too.  I'll rank them in order.  I haven't played any Hanse courses and judging by seeing some of his plans at Lookout Mtn and what he did with Doral I'm not super eager.  He has many more courses in his US resume, below.  I'm curious to those Hanse fans how they would rank his work?  from the web at the bottom.  What I find impressive with Mike's work is the diversity of course types and models he has with the 5 MI courses.  His green designs vary from designs which is impressive.  Greywalls having more crowned edges and Kinglsey having more internal contouring.   

DeVries (my rankings)

Kingsley
Greywalls

Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run

The Mines
 
Hanse

• Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Pennsylvania (1998)
• South Fork Country Club, Amagansett, New York (1999)
• Applebrook Golf Cub, Malvern, Pennsylvania (2001)
• Rustic Canyon Golf Course, Moorpark, California (2002)
• French Creek Golf Club, Elverson, Pennsylvania (2004)
• Boston Golf Club, Hingham, Massachusetts (2005)
• The Vineyard Club, Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (2015)
• Mossy Oak Golf Club at Old Waverly, West Point, Mississippi (2016)
• Streamsong Resort - Black Course, Bowling Green, Florida (2017)

What about Hanse's Lookout plans were you not impressed with?

He likes ponds by greens, I can't recall off the top of my head the hole on the back he wanted a pond on, was it 12?   His plans at Oakland Hills S were good, but that place needs as much help as it can get.  Rustic Canyon is the course I'd like to play most of his, I'd rather play there then Pebble

[Josh Tarble]

Cory,

Nice thread.  I'm probably one of the few to play all 5 on Mike's US courses that are in Michigan, curious if any others have too.  I'll rank them in order.  I haven't played any Hanse courses and judging by seeing some of his plans at Lookout Mtn and what he did with Doral I'm not super eager.  He has many more courses in his US resume, below.  I'm curious to those Hanse fans how they would rank his work?  from the web at the bottom.  What I find impressive with Mike's work is the diversity of course types and models he has with the 5 MI courses.  His green designs vary from designs which is impressive.  Greywalls having more crowned edges and Kinglsey having more internal contouring.   

DeVries (my rankings)

Kingsley
Greywalls

Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run

The Mines
 
Hanse

• Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Pennsylvania (1998)
• South Fork Country Club, Amagansett, New York (1999)
• Applebrook Golf Cub, Malvern, Pennsylvania (2001)
• Rustic Canyon Golf Course, Moorpark, California (2002)
• French Creek Golf Club, Elverson, Pennsylvania (2004)
• Boston Golf Club, Hingham, Massachusetts (2005)
• The Vineyard Club, Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (2015)
• Mossy Oak Golf Club at Old Waverly, West Point, Mississippi (2016)
• Streamsong Resort - Black Course, Bowling Green, Florida (2017)

What about Hanse's Lookout plans were you not impressed with?

He likes ponds by greens, I can't recall off the top of my head the hole on the back he wanted a pond on, was it 12?   His plans at Oakland Hills S were good, but that place needs as much help as it can get.  Rustic Canyon is the course I'd like to play most of his, I'd rather play there then Pebble

You do realize there's already a pond on 12 right? 

[Rees Milikin]

Cory,

Nice thread.  I'm probably one of the few to play all 5 on Mike's US courses that are in Michigan, curious if any others have too.  I'll rank them in order.  I haven't played any Hanse courses and judging by seeing some of his plans at Lookout Mtn and what he did with Doral I'm not super eager.  He has many more courses in his US resume, below.  I'm curious to those Hanse fans how they would rank his work?  from the web at the bottom.  What I find impressive with Mike's work is the diversity of course types and models he has with the 5 MI courses.  His green designs vary from designs which is impressive.  Greywalls having more crowned edges and Kinglsey having more internal contouring.   

DeVries (my rankings)

Kingsley
Greywalls

Diamond Springs
Pilgrims Run

The Mines
 
Hanse

• Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Pennsylvania (1998)
• South Fork Country Club, Amagansett, New York (1999)
• Applebrook Golf Cub, Malvern, Pennsylvania (2001)
• Rustic Canyon Golf Course, Moorpark, California (2002)
• French Creek Golf Club, Elverson, Pennsylvania (2004)
• Boston Golf Club, Hingham, Massachusetts (2005)
• The Vineyard Club, Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts (2015)
• Mossy Oak Golf Club at Old Waverly, West Point, Mississippi (2016)
• Streamsong Resort - Black Course, Bowling Green, Florida (2017)

What about Hanse's Lookout plans were you not impressed with?

He likes ponds by greens, I can't recall off the top of my head the hole on the back he wanted a pond on, was it 12?   His plans at Oakland Hills S were good, but that place needs as much help as it can get.  Rustic Canyon is the course I'd like to play most of his, I'd rather play there then Pebble

There is a current pond to the back right of #14, his plans would push the green farther back which would make it directly to the right.  #14 green has one pin placement and needs some serious work, which I can't fault Hanse for doing what he wants to do.  The pond is in play for mis hit shots regardless of whether or not Hanse touches the course or not.  Currently no other water on the course that really comes into play unless you hit a really really really bad shot on #1 & #12...which Hanse isn't going to do anything with.

[BCowan]

Rees,

   14, yes that was the one.  Haven't seen the plans in 4-5 years so my memory is off, plus I have a hard time remembering the routing sequence at LM.  That is exactly the stuff I do NOT like.  Why can't Hanse create more pin placements by expanding the current 14th green or blow it up and redo at the same location? 

I'd like for this to remain on topic of discussing DeVries and Hanse original work.  I'm very surprised there isn't more discussion on the topic

[Stephen Davis]

Okay, I just corrected it.

Actually removing LACC South is incorrect. It is a Hanse Design. The only thing it really shares with the old South course are the 1,2 and 17, 18 corridors. Those holes are different, but occupy mostly similar land as before. The other holes are completely changed.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm very surprised there isn't more discussion on the topic

I was a bit surprised at first, too, but if you think about it they have not built that many courses, and it's starting to look like the posters in the DG have not played that many of them!


I've seen four of Mike's five courses in the U.S. [all except Diamond Springs], but only two of those on your list for Gil.  [I've also seen his two in Scotland.]  I think their work is pretty different - as with their personalities - but I'm not going to step out here and make a lot of comparisons or choose a favorite ... especially when nobody else is going out on that limb first.


Gil does like water hazards a lot more than me or Bill Coore, or Mike, from what I've seen.


Robert Mercer Deruntz:  regarding Rustic Canyon vs. Kingsley, it's easier to make a design be more about angles when you don't have much topography to consider.  Kingsley is a very hilly site and the topo would have dictated the routing a lot more there, whereas Rustic Canyon has a lot of linear hazards due to the dry wash that comes through the site.

[Jason Topp]

I'm very surprised there isn't more discussion on the topic

I was a bit surprised at first, too, but if you think about it they have not built that many courses, and it's starting to look like the posters in the DG have not played that many of them!

That is my problem.  I have played Rustic and the new Doral but do not believe I have played another Hanse course.  I have played Kingsley.  The three courses are designed for such different purposes and on such different sites that I do not have a reasonable basis for an opinion.   

[Ian Andrew]

Your missing TPC Boston and Sawanee

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Regarding Kingsley:
No doubt it is a very hilly site, but so is Crystal Downs, which has wonderful angles of attack.  My little critique is that there is room for wider fairways on the 7th, 8th, and 11th. And the trees down the right on the 15th ruin the possibility of pulling off a great shot from a poor angle

[Bill Seitz]

Regarding Kingsley:
No doubt it is a very hilly site, but so is Crystal Downs, which has wonderful angles of attack.  My little critique is that there is room for wider fairways on the 7th, 8th, and 11th. And the trees down the right on the 15th ruin the possibility of pulling off a great shot from a poor angle

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're talking about Kingsley, the 8th fairway is 60-70 yards wide on a short par four where most players are hitting 3-wood or hybrid, and 11 is a par three.  The fairway on 7 pinches if you're hitting driver, but it's a three shot hole with ample room to hit the fairway off the tee, and the layup areas where one sets up an approach is effectively 50 yards wide with a couple of very different ways to play it.  Meanwhile, while I enjoyed Crystal Downs, the first two holes have plenty of room for extra width that they don't use for some reason, and the 10th hole is cut such that the best angle of approach into the green is 10-15 yards into the right rough.  Seems like an odd critique to me.


I wouldn't mind seeing some trees right of 15 cut down, though. But I think it's a very misunderstood hole, so I don't mind living with it.


I've played Kingsley, Greywalls, and Rustic.  I love all three.  They are very different sites and very hard to compare or contrast, but I think they each got just about a good a golf course as they possibly could have given the sites. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Correction, I meant the 12th and did not realize that the one key had been hit in stead.  The 8th is a wide fairway, but more room on the left would increase interest, since the green has a lot of cool contouring.  If the 7th fairway was extended left, it would offer a more uphill, longer, but more direct approach.  The hole can be hit in two, but being enticed to take the risk from the left would make it a better hole

[BCowan]

Your missing TPC Boston and Sawanee

Both are considered Reno or Resto on Wiki page. 


Ian, let's get ur comparisons on the two Archies

[BCowan]

Correction, I meant the 12th and did not realize that the one key had been hit in stead.  The 8th is a wide fairway, but more room on the left would increase interest, since the green has a lot of cool contouring.  If the 7th fairway was extended left, it would offer a more uphill, longer, but more direct approach.  The hole can be hit in two, but being enticed to take the risk from the left would make it a better hole

Robert,


You are not alone, the tee shot off #7 at KC is weak. I like 8 and 15.  9 is a poor example of quirk. 


Bill,


  Id love to hear a contrast of Greywalls vs Rustic, both are difficult sites (rustic haven't played but heard).  I don't think that Greywalls front 9 is anywhere near it's full potential with disjointedness.  That is lack of funds and environmental related.