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Kyle Harris

A day at Bethpage
« on: June 16, 2005, 12:05:09 AM »
Spent today at Bethpage playing with Doug Braunsdorf. We played Red in the morning and Yellow in the afternoon (my first time for both) and I must say I was more than impressed.

The Red Course is worthy of consideration for a US Amateur or other high major tournament. I was particularly impressed with the stretch of holes from #7 on, and the finishing hole is the best one at Bethpage. With new tee boxes, the course stretches to over 7000 yards, but it is still very very playable, and features more options than the Black into the greens.

I feel the course may benefit from some tree removal (I'd especially like to see the trees thinned between Red #5 and Black #16, and Red #5 and Red #6, widening the corridor just a bit on Red #5 and 6 to lull the golfer into a false sense of security. The Red's 6th Hole is a sharp dog leg left that appears to have been much more open in the beginning. The green faces the tee and with less trees would probably tempt the golfer into making the mistake of cutting the corner, but right now, the trees hold your hand to the correct line.

I was also interested to note that it appears that many of the Red's greens may have shrunk over the years, especially on the the first few holes. If this is the case, I'd like to see them expanded back to the original lines, which would bring the bunkering and contours around the greens more into play.

The Yellow is a composite course of some Alfred Tull holes and an absolutely awesome stretch of Tillinghast Holes from 10 to 14. The "Reef" hole anchors this stretch at 12, and playing at 312 Yards is quite the great short par four. I noticed that the Tillinghast greens on the Yellow were more integrated with the bunkers and surrounding features than those on the Red, and this may provide some guidance for green expansion on the Red (Phil Young, your input here would be most welcome).

The Alfred Tull holes try to, but fall short of capturing the Tillie style. It's almost as Tull toured the Red, noted the distance between greens and bunkers, and then looked at the construction plans with green square footage, and made the greens the original size of the Red's but with some disconnect between the greens and bunkers/mounding. The Tull holes don't necessarily take away from the experience, but there is a fairly distinct change in feel and difficulty to the holes.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 07:55:58 PM »
What is significant about many of the Tillinghast holes here is the use of the diagonal-found on the Black course, but also found on the other courses.  

I have not looked into what is Tillie on today's Blue course, but I will underscore Kyle's comments with several examples from the course.  

Also, I will be doing a photo essay of the Red Course at a later date, a 'My Home Course'.  

At this time, I will discuss Tillie's use of the diagonal on The Red Course.




The first example I will give is the sixth hole-a 350 yard par 4.  It is visible in the left-center of the picture, and features a sharp dogleg.  
Not visible from the aerial are the swales located in the inside of the dogleg, as well as the overhanging tree limbs.  

The "safe" play here is a shot of about 230 yards, to the right-center of the fairway, leaving the golfer a shot of about 140 yards to a green that runs both away from you and right to left.  

The more "daring" play, if trees were to be cut back, would  be driver across the corner, just short of the green, leaving an easy pitch.  

The penalty for missing a drive left would be to land in one of the swales, leaving an awkward stance to this fallaway green.  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 08:28:31 PM by Douglas Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Phil_the_Author

Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 11:08:54 PM »
Well Kyle & Doug, I am always jealous whenever someone gets to play a course at Bethpage & I couldn't be there! I am very glad that you both enjoyed it.

You asked for some input into your observation of noticing, "that the Tillinghast greens on the Yellow were more integrated with the bunkers and surrounding features than those on the Red, and this may provide some guidance for green expansion on the Red (Phil Young, your input here would be most welcome)."

I am actually in the middle of writing an article about the greens at Bethpage. It was inspired by a late afternoon visit several weeks back, to Winged Foot and Neil Regan. He shared with me the program that WF has been implementing for several years, that is to fully recover their green footage.

Most people are unaware, as was I, that during the late years of the Depression and through WW I, money was so tight that the club had to choose between closing the East Course down and letting it go fallow or dramatically lessening the green sizes on both courses in order to save enough in maintenance costs to keep both open. Thankfully they chose the latter.

Neil took me up to the "Historians Den" in the attic and showed me all sorts of wonderful old photos of how the greens used to look. There is one dramatic photo of a golf cart parked several feet from the back left of the 18th green just a few years ago and then a matching photo of the same green from the 20's. The cart was sitting where the putting green used to be.

After seeing a few of these examples, a thought jumped out at me which I was able to confirm (at least to my own satisfaction) that this same thing had to have occurred at Bethpage.

After studying numerous photos of Tilly's greens from courses built in the 20's the typical green extends all the way to the bunkers and then some. Many times they actually came to the very edge of where the rough would begin dropping down dramatically. For years now, whenever an architect would describe a Tillinghast bunker, usually he would say that Tilly would tuck the bunkers into the greens. I am now of the opinion that he did the opposite. I think that he brought the greens into the bunkers and rough. Yes, in a sense, both opinions provide for the same design characteristics, but the long-term outcomes differ.

Consider this, at times when a renovation is done to a course, the architect will sometimes move the bunkers in closer to the green because there are cases where bunkers shift and move away. This is what Rees Jones did when renovating the Black and because the bunkers were so far from the edges of the putting surface. He had a sound basis for this reasoning, and in fact, most everyone agreed with this assessment. I now believe they were wrong.

There are very few extent photos of the greens on the Black dating back from the 30's. If there were, I contend that they would show much larger greens, with the putting surfaces extended all the way to the edges, just as he did at WF & others. And yet there is one that shows what I am refering to on page 152 of "Reminiscences of the Links." It is the green of the 8th hole of the Black course shot during the first Sam Snead exhibition match played in 1938. Notice the spectators watching the match and you suddenly realize that they are actually standing on the front portion of the green. In fact, the green extends beyond them and comes to the very edge of where it drops dramatically down into the pond. Now on the opposite page there is another photo of this same green, this one shot in 1956. Even though it is taken from the back side, the front edge of the putting surface can be clearly seen. It is now at least 10 feet, if not more, from where the edge used to be.

If you take a careful look at the greens at Bethpage Black, Red & old Blue courses, you will see that they all are of the same basic design where the boundaries of the complexes are defined by anchoring mounds. Three very fine examples of this can be seen in the book, "Gleanings from the Wayside." On p.79, in the photo of the 11th green at Essex, notice how Tilly tied the green dimensions into the swales and tops of the moundings on the edges of the green. Another clear example of this is on p.85, this time it is the fourth green of the West Course at Ridgewood. Again, on p.96, it also can be clearly seen on the sixth green of the Dallas CC.

In each instance the edges of the greens are defined by the raised mounds and their crests with little, if no, fringe.

Now, consider the courses at Bethpage and in particular the Black. Almost every green is structured in this same fashion. It can be safely shown that the green dimensions typically would flow to these points just as they did on many a typical Tillinghast green found on a number of his other designs. What is most interesting about this is how, if I am correct, then the greens can no longer be called "flat!" The undulations in most of these areas range from strong to downright severe.

I was able to go over this theory with Craig Currier in May for a few minutes and we will be meeting to discuss it in great detail in August.

The ramifications of this idea, if correct, range from the idea that the Black's greens being flat are now answered, to this being another proof that Tilly designed these courses since the style is most definitely his, to will they consider recovering these areas in time for the 2009 Open.

Frankly, I have not finished this study, and have no problem in accepting that I might be incorrect in my reasoning, but right now it seems to be standing up to every argument.

Forgive me guys if this turns your discussion in another direction for that was not my intent. I just felt that Kyle's asking for help could not be ignored.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 11:44:19 PM »


Phil

Isn't this something that Rees Jones should have been thinking about when he was restoring?  Maybe the crew should concentrate on this instead of new positions on 14.

Phil_the_Author

Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2005, 08:10:42 AM »
Hamilton,

You wrote, "Isn't this something that Rees Jones should have been thinking about when he was restoring?  Maybe the crew should concentrate on this instead of new positions on 14."

It has the sound of someone who is wanting to be critical of Rees Jones. For the record, I believe that he did a wonderful job ib the restoration. That they MAY have missed the actual green layouts isn;t to be wondered, for EVERYONE has done so!

Think about it, if it has taken WF till now to remember this about their green's, and I put it this way because there were many who had to be convinced that this was so and then to take action, why should we be surprised that it might have been missed at Bethpage where the only person who has taken any active hand in trying to officially piece its history together never even considered this?

As I said, we are now talking about it & will see where it finally goes. The work on #14 was a great idea that in its implementation has become fabulous.

In addition to this, there will be a few other minor tweakings, some of which were actually missed by our dynamic duo during their round!   ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2005, 08:13:43 AM »
Phil,

Your response was excellent and most appreciated. Thanks for the time and completeness to your answer. It was very fun to contrast the two courses and I didn't know that much of Tillinghast had survived on the Yellow. Very interesting points about the Black Course greens too, and I can see many areas (6th Green especially) where the greens being expanded would make them very much more severely contoured.

We played with a Caddy from Winged Foot and Deepdale and as we were walked down 9 I commented that the green looked like something out of Winged Foot. His response that Winged Foot's greens were much more severe and pushed up, due to the nature of the terrain, and that the Red Course's greens seemed more natural. I wonder and could visualize somewhat that an expanded green on a lot of those holes would look much more severe.

As Doug noted, the sixth hole was of much interest to me, and I'd love to see how the hole played at opening. The dips and swales on that hole (and all over the course) are an intriguing and excellently implemented feature and it's unfortunate that the tree growth and current fairway contours have taken a lot of this out of direct play.

Doug and I were discussing the Yellow and the old Blue and we were trying to determine the configuration of the greens today as they were on the old course - specifically today's 8th Hole. I believe that there are some old bunker footprints from the old 7th hole between the present day Yellow 8 and Yellow 18. However, Doug and I couldn't seem to figure out or agree as to which green today's 8th was. I contend it was the Blue 10th, and he was more leaning toward today's Blue 8th, with the ninth hole Yellow being a modified version of old Blue's 2. Do you have any definite information on this?

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A day at Bethpage
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2005, 09:51:38 PM »
The second example of Tillie's use of angles on the Red Course I would like to offer would be hole #13.  

It is a par 4 of 400 yards, and is located at the top of the picture-tees are on the right.  This hole features a large crossbunker from 230 out to about 85 out.  There is approximately 20-25 yards of fairway on either side of the crossbunker.  

The crossbunker requires the player to do one of three things:

1.  Play a blind drive left, over the first set of bunkers about 100 yards from the tee.  This requires the player to flirt with rough down the left side, and the crossbunker to the right.  However, the reward for doing so and finding the fairway is a relatively straightforward shot of 150 or less yards looking directly up the green.

2.  Play short of the crossbunker.  This requires a shot of about 230 yards, which is not blind, although it leaves the player to contend with the crossbunker and the greenside bunker, as well as approaching the green at an odd angle, on his second.  

3.  Play right of the crossbunker.  This would leave the player about 160 yards or so in, and having to face a greenside bunker, rough, and a bit of the crossbunker in hopes of reaching the green.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A day at Bethpage
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2016, 08:04:58 AM »
Well I finally played The Yellow after years of walking past it. 83 degrees yesterday, The Black was jammed, The Red was closed for a greens punch, so I trekked onto the Yellow with expectations of leaving after 12 holes as the 12th comes back close to the finish.


This is $38!!



Okay I have to pay New York State taxes, but this course was really impressive at the "inside rate" of $38. They really take care of the courses out at Bethpage now and you can see and feel the pride they have in the facility:



The Yellow is a very strong mix of great terrain (I thought it was the flat side of Bethpage, it is not) with a mix of mainly Alfred Tull but also some Tilly holes. Here is the absolutely all world Tilly 185 yard par 3 #14 that also has a fabulous green:



Holes 15-18 finish on a flatter section of Tully holes. The par 4 and par 3 lengths might be a little repetitive, but they are very good holes individually. Maybe the best "Doak 5" that I have ever played.

Bethpage Partners:

  • Yale trained Professor at Hofstra University, who pointed out The Reef hole that was/is on the Yellow. Lot's of conversations about Yale Golf Course too. The Reef bunkering is gone now, but it was easy to see where the bunker was located. I told him I might be his only playing partner at Bethpage that actually know what he is talking about :)
  • Union official/worker with a son in the US Military, we compared many notes about our sons in the military.
  • A retired Long Islander that was straight of of a Seinfeld episode, in a good way!
Ok, it was 5 hours, but the company was great, the course was fun and it was a beautiful refreshing day before frost season starts in a week or two. I was fortunate to play Shinnecock Hills Golf Club last Friday. I really do love them both. Golf on Long Island continues to be great despite the traffic!!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 08:08:09 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A day at Bethpage
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2017, 07:58:04 AM »
It took almost 30 years, but I finally completed the Bethpage rotation yesterday by playing on the original course designed by Dev Emmet - The Green:




In state, I payed $43. This was prompted by someone who posted here that the Green was worth a play, and it was. My updated Bethpage ranking now:

1. Black

2. Red
3. Yellow
4. Green


5. Blue

The Green might have the most potential as a renovation candidate. It was obvious where greens had shrunk over the years and bunkers had been lost. Still really enjoyed it. Doak 5 with potential of a 7....
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark