[Jerry Kluger]

in any way reflect on the quality of the golf course? A fellow GCAer and myself were discussing a course this morning and I told him that I would make a substantial bet that he would not be able to finish the round if he only had 2 balls with him when he teed off on the first hole.  This was not meant to be a gimmick bet rather I was trying to make the point that the course has so many hazards and really deep rough that he was bound to lose more than 2 balls during a round.  So the question is whether this is a reflection of the quality of the course architecture or can a course which you feel you must have more than 2 balls with you when you tee off on the first hole be reflective of top quality golf course architecture? I realize that there are quite a few variables, especially the skill level of the player, but let's say the player is playing from the appropriate tees. Or perhaps the architecture is really good but only if you are a really good player.

[BCowan]

Yes, once it's praised with high points then these sorta courses get build frequently.  I don't think the course can be over a Doak 6 if you can lose more then 2 balls most rounds you play.  It comes down to not building on a bad site, Maint meld, and or the Archie running out of creative ideas and building shitty ponds. Also modern day envir. restrictions. 

[Thomas Dai]

And how would it effect the players approach to the round - aggressive, as usual, cautious, very cautious, extremely cautious?
Bit like if golf balls cost say £/$1,000 each. Would the financially limited player happily wack away without much care or something else?
atb

[Jonathan Mallard]

And how would it effect the players approach to the round - aggressive, as usual, cautious, very cautious, extremely cautious?
Bit like if golf balls cost say £/$1,000 each. Would the financially limited player happily wack away without much care or something else?
atb

IIRC from reading Tommy's Honor, back in the day, it took one person all day to make a ball with fairly significant risk to limb and even life in unfortunate cases.


Add that for context.

[jeffwarne]

Yes, once it's praised with high points then these sorta courses get build frequently.  I don't think the course can be over a Doak 6 if you can lose more then 2 balls most rounds you play. 

there went most of the great links courses of the world

[Jerry Kluger]

Dai: I am not asking the question literally - I am suggesting that a course where you stand on the first tee and recognize that you will probably lose a sleeve of balls during a round is of questionable quality.  Just think about being a member of such a course and having to deal with that situation on a regular basis - doesn't seem to me like it would be very much fun. There may be some courses where such a situation will arise because of conditions but aren't usually that way.  Courses like the Ocean Course at Kiawah can become extremely difficult when the wind is really blowing and you could lose a bunch of balls but normally when the wind is 10 - 15 mph it is manageable.

[BCowan]

Yes, once it's praised with high points then these sorta courses get build frequently.  I don't think the course can be over a Doak 6 if you can lose more then 2 balls most rounds you play. 

there went most of the great links courses of the world

Old Tom would dis approve?  More goats or more burning?  Please name which links courses that I need to avoid.  Nothing wrong with a Doak 5 or 6....

[Peter Pallotta]

Architects probably love clubs with caddy programs...

[Ryan Coles]

Yes, once it's praised with high points then these sorta courses get build frequently.  I don't think the course can be over a Doak 6 if you can lose more then 2 balls most rounds you play. 

there went most of the great links courses of the world

Old Tom would dis approve.  More goats or more burning.  Please name which links courses that I need to avoid.  Nothing wrong with a Doak 5 or 6....

Sounds to me like you've already avoided them all. Plenty of links don't fit your viewpoint. And a few of them are Doak 10's.

[BCowan]

Are u addressing me?  So most links an 18 handi is losing more then 2 balls a round? 

[Ryan Coles]

Yes, it was your post I quoted, Ben.

And yes. Same goes for an 8 hcap. If the wind blows, same goes for everyone.


Your comment about 2 balls or more  not being above a Doak 6 is way off, as Jeff pointed out.   

[BCowan]

Ryan,

   Thanks for info.  My comment about losing more then 2 balls a round was in regards to US courses for I haven't played UK links golf.  Whether it is links or parkland or prairie golf, the Cowan scale deducts for lost balls.  Jeff sent me a message that the more lesser known links courses he found it easier to find balls.  I'll bow out of links discussion. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

How many balls does it take to play Royal County Down? It's pretty good.

[Carl Nichols]

If the standard is a typical 18-handicap, it would be foolhardy to bring only two balls to Augusta. And Pine Valley. And Merion. And Pebble. And Cypress. And every top links course.

[Greg Chambers]

The number of balls you bring with you to the first tee in no way correlates to the quality of architecture.  If I pull hook three balls into the tennis courts on 1 at Riviera then the course is somehow not worthy?  It's an absurd assumption.

[Garland Bayley]

in any way reflect on the quality of the golf course? ...

No, it reflects on the maintenance, assuming the balls are truly being lost, not being hit into hazards.

[Greg Chambers]

How does it reflect on the maintenance?  Please enlighten.

[Thomas Dai]

Jerry,
Don't necessarily disagree with you, just an add-on.
Looking from a different perspective list balls are of course good news £$€ for pro-shops and retailers and manufacturers. Bad for slow play though, although soon it'll be 3 mins not 5 mins 'looking time'.
Atb

[Jerry Kluger]

OK: So more than 2 balls at the first tee isn't necessarily reflective of the quality of the architecture but can it be demonstrative of bad architecture? At what number would you say that it does reflect bad architecture? 


There is a story told that a substantial bet was made that a high handicap player could not get around Pine Valley because of the forced carries, etc. The high handicapper won the bet by playing his ball down the walking paths and around the trouble. Point is, some courses are just very difficult and too much so for some players. 


Maybe having only 2 balls would make the player recognize his limitations and play accordingly. 


Greg: Maybe some tennis players are like golfers - they throw the balls back that are hit over the fence.

[Matt MacIver]

Right now our rough is 5 inches, and we all lost balls this weekend 1-2 feet off the fairway. That's after four people looking for five minutes. I would normally chalk it up to August weather and deal with it but it's too much in Sept., maintenance gone bad.

[BCowan]

If the standard is a typical 18-handicap, it would be foolhardy to bring only two balls to Augusta. And Pine Valley. And Merion. And Pebble. And Cypress. And every top links course.

Pine valley was not designed for 18 handi so please don't include it. Augusta architecture has been messed w so much with pond additions.  I have not played Merion but u are saying many lost balls are possible?  Original Augusta I'd bet 2 or less. 


This is difficult exercise as there are 18 handis that blow it all over and ones that hit it rather straight and feel safe on the bogey train

[Carl Johnson]

How does it reflect on the maintenance?  Please enlighten.

Seconding Matt MacIver (reply 19 above).  Architect designs course for wide fairways, but green committee decides to narrow the fairways.  That, on top of how the Bermuda rough plays out at this time of year when it's not cut lower, means you can easily lose balls just a few feet off the fairway.  Scores go up.  HCs go up.  This in no way reflects on the architecture.  On the positive side, everyone is playing the same course in matches, so what the heck?  My solution is to play less golf.


Obviously, architectural design (e.g., water, forced carries) can affect the relative number of lost balls.  For some folks, that's fun.  For others, not so much.  Of course, the fundamental question, here as in just about all of our topics, is what is "top quality golf course architecture?"

[Bruce Katona]

If you are held up for a few minutes the next time you play, walk over the the closest piece of rough or higher grass area adjacent to the tee/fairway/green you just played from and look to see how many balls are lying in the higher grass. In fact a good portion of them will be Titleist Pro V's.


The locations of these misplaced shots is mind-boggling; and for $50 and up a dozen.  The average guy playing on the weekend can easily go thru 1/2 dozen balls per round; if he wants to hit a Titleist; maybe he should be playing some of their lower end models....$50 a dozen for where many of these mishits go is just throwing money away.

[Carl Nichols]

If the standard is a typical 18-handicap, it would be foolhardy to bring only two balls to Augusta. And Pine Valley. And Merion. And Pebble. And Cypress. And every top links course.

Pine valley was not designed for 18 handi so please don't include it. Augusta architecture has been messed w so much with pond additions.  I have not played Merion but u are saying many lost balls are possible?  Original Augusta I'd bet 2 or less. 


This is difficult exercise as there are 18 handis that blow it all over and ones that hit it rather straight and feel safe on the bogey train

Ben:
The question was whether an 18-handicapper needing more than two balls on the first tee is a "reflection of the quality of the course architecture."   I listed a bunch of highly regarded courses (ones with a high "quality of . . . course architecture") where it's very likely that an 18-handicapper would lose at least two balls.  There may be different reasons for that, but I don't think an 18-handicapper needing more than two balls means a course isn't well designed.

As for Merion, from what I experienced, there are at least four ways an 18-handicapper can easily lose balls:  OB (there's quite a bit of it); Cobb's Creek; the quarry; and natives. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

12 balls I like to carry whatever the course.

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