LACC #17

[Billie Phillips]

With the majority of the US team members playing their tee shot on the 17th hole down the 2nd fairway, does anyone foresee any alterations to hinder OR promote this type of line of the tee; i.e., true double fairway, interior out of bounds, Inverness '79 style tree planting near the tee?


It seemed on average that the players playing down the second fairway had similar yardage to the green but a more difficult line, having to come directly over the left greenside traps.

[Jim Nugent]

Billie, if the second shot was harder from the second fairway, why did players hit their tee shots there in the first place?

[Tim Gallant]

Billie, if the second shot was harder from the second fairway, why did players hit their tee shots there in the first place?

Jim,


Spider Miller explained this as did Gil on the telecast. A few of the US players had a left-to-right shot shape, and the thinking was that if they overcut the shot and ended up in the barranca, they would be dead (true). They felt more comfortable hitting their tee shot out towards the second, which gave them more space to miss. The rest of the team liked that approach, and so it was adopted by pretty much everyone one the team.


However, as Gil explained, they were basically deferring the risk to the second shot by not taking on the drive. Watching the morning foursomes on Sunday, I didn't see a group hit the green from the angle of the 2nd fairway, but no group made worse than a 5, so if their objective was to not make worse than a bogey, I suppose they succeeded.


For the US Open, the issue as others have pointed to is more about spectator flow and also hold-ups while those teeing off on 2 wait for those playing 17 to hit their approaches.

[Kalen Braley]

I think playing up the 2nd works, because even if you do hit the 17th fairway its still a tough approach into that green, even if not as difficult as coming from 2 fairway. But if you miss it right, now your looking at a pitch out back to the fairway and a full approach 3rd instead of a green side 3rd.


As for the US open, i don't know if there's anything they can do other than put a big driving range net in between the two holes! 

[John Sabino]

Kalen - I think Mike Davis suggested they were thinking about an internal out of bounds between the two holes, which he said isn't ideal, but they are worried about pace of play and safety. John

[Eric LeFante]

Here is Mike Davis's comments:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lacc-passes-walker-cup-test-as-the-usgas-mike-davis-takes-notes-for-when-the-us-open-goes-there-in-2023

[Jim Nugent]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself? 

[Tom_Doak]

Here is Mike Davis's comments:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lacc-passes-walker-cup-test-as-the-usgas-mike-davis-takes-notes-for-when-the-us-open-goes-there-in-2023

He's his own toughest critic:



“[/size]The firmness numbers, to give you an idea, [on Saturday] we played the [par-3] 15th hole a short little 78 yards. We did that with a mind that we’ll play it short for a day at the U.S. Open. I actually think we had it perfect in terms of the firmness of the green. I think we nailed it. We went out and got exact firmness readings, we got moisture levels. Fast forward to 2023, to get that hole to play properly and fair, here’s what the moisture readings need to be, the firmness readings need to be, and we know the speed of the greens."

[Kalen Braley]

Here is Mike Davis's comments:


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lacc-passes-walker-cup-test-as-the-usgas-mike-davis-takes-notes-for-when-the-us-open-goes-there-in-2023

He's his own toughest critic:



“The firmness numbers, to give you an idea, [on Saturday] we played the [par-3] 15th hole a short little 78 yards. We did that with a mind that we’ll play it short for a day at the U.S. Open. I actually think we had it perfect in terms of the firmness of the green. I think we nailed it. We went out and got exact firmness readings, we got moisture levels. Fast forward to 2023, to get that hole to play properly and fair, here’s what the moisture readings need to be, the firmness readings need to be, and we know the speed of the greens."

[ed_getka]

While I was there as a volunteer, someone said they have planted some sycamores that should grow enough to be a deterrent by 2023. I don't know how fast sycamores grow but they are about 20 feet right now.

[Matthew Petersen]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself?

Not for these players. A 300 yard drive off of 17 into the second fairway is about 240 from the back of the second tee.

[Jim Nugent]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself?

Not for these players. A 300 yard drive off of 17 into the second fairway is about 240 from the back of the second tee.

If you don't want internal OB, and don't want to plant a row of trees down the left side of #17, then turn the second fairway into rough, where those #17 tee shots land. 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself?

Not for these players. A 300 yard drive off of 17 into the second fairway is about 240 from the back of the second tee.

If you don't want internal OB, and don't want to plant a row of trees down the left side of #17, then turn the second fairway into rough, where those #17 tee shots land.

Put a cross bunker 240 out on 2!  Not a factor on 2 but a big factor on 17!

[Matthew Petersen]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself?

Not for these players. A 300 yard drive off of 17 into the second fairway is about 240 from the back of the second tee.

If you don't want internal OB, and don't want to plant a row of trees down the left side of #17, then turn the second fairway into rough, where those #17 tee shots land.

That would have to be something you'd only do for these big events and even still it would look pretty weird because the area in question on #2 fairway is the landing zone for tee shots off #2 for most members and, y'know, human golfers. In fact it's kind of right in between the three bunkers that frame the landing area on #2 (again, for mortals) so it would look very odd to be kept as rough. That said, it could probably be narrowed quite a bit in a way that wouldn't really affect US Open players on #2 but would also make the risk/reward calculus different off of #17 tee (you really don't want to be going at that green from a terrible angle out of the rough.)

How commonly do PGA pros play to the wrong fairway deliberately? I know there was some discussion of that on the new hole at TPC Boston this year, but I know that was a somewhat limited field event and I don't know the gallery situation. I also saw some guys do it on a hole during the match play event in Tucson some years ago, but that's a really limited field and very limited crowd.

To some extent, though, unless you get trees in the way, there is a certain appeal to that play, even if it's rough. If you drive into the second fairway, you should be able to make 5 on the hole. Play a second shot to the front edge of the green knowing that front bunker is OK, you'll likely make no worse than 5 from there. The only real bad miss is to go long right from that direction, where you can run into the barranca. But playing down the fairway brings the barranca into play and that means double is a real possibility. If you really need a 3 or a 4 on 17 then you'd probably want to play it the "right" way, but if a 5 is all you need playing down 2 frankly makes a lot of sense.

[Andrew Buck]

Another question: when you hit your drive off the 17th tee to the 2nd fairway, is the landing zone the same as when you play the second hole itself?

Not for these players. A 300 yard drive off of 17 into the second fairway is about 240 from the back of the second tee.

If you don't want internal OB, and don't want to plant a row of trees down the left side of #17, then turn the second fairway into rough, where those #17 tee shots land.

Put a cross bunker 240 out on 2!  Not a factor on 2 but a big factor on 17!

Heck no.  Both holes are great holes and among the most difficult on the course.  No reason to add a cross bunker that isn't needed but will be penal for everyday play to discourage this for 4 days.  If you have to do something for the open, change mowing patterns that summer only. 

[Andrew Buck]

I think playing up the 2nd works, because even if you do hit the 17th fairway its still a tough approach into that green, even if not as difficult as coming from 2 fairway. But if you miss it right, now your looking at a pitch out back to the fairway and a full approach 3rd instead of a green side 3rd.


As for the US open, i don't know if there's anything they can do other than put a big driving range net in between the two holes! 

This is true, even from the middle of the fairway, the diagonal greenside bunker is intimidating and gives you the visual of forced carry.  Of course, there is much more green to work with from the fairway.

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

At least initially, GBI players hit their tee shots down the 17th fairway.  On the second day, I remember one GBI player going up #2. Not sure about the others.


Does anybody know what % of GBI drives were up 17 and how many caught the fairway? 


Tour players may be more confident taking that route than the US Walker Cuppers?

[Kalen Braley]

Andrew,


I like the idea of letting the grass grow on #2 fairway in the LZ from 17 tee.  Seems like the simplest way to do it and just return to fairway length after the Open....

[Matt_Cohn]

I just saw a notice that George C Thomas, a mid-am event held at LACC each June, isn’t she being played this year due to work on the golf course. Anybody know what’s underway?

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm told they're regrassing the greens.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Put in internal o.o.b. in one direction till the egoistic players stop deliberately playing the wrong fairway.


I've encountered this situation frequently where big hitters play alternative fairways to avoid hazards or gain a better angle.


The danger to on comers, delay of play and disregard of the challenge of the design of the hole by these players should be  penalized not appeased.

[Alex Miller]

Andrew,


I like the idea of letting the grass grow on #2 fairway in the LZ from 17 tee.  Seems like the simplest way to do it and just return to fairway length after the Open....

Problem is the LZ for #17 and #2 are in the same area, so this isn't really a viable option.


There is a tree down the left side of 17 that makes a 3W unappealing and effectively narrows the landing area because it blocks the preferred L to R shot shape. If they were to move that tree further down it could accomplish two things which would make 17 fairway favorable to 2's off the tee.


Moving the tree would widen the fairway for players who choose to hit less than driver - they could also expand the fairway cut or even merge it with #2 for a bit. If they chose to transplant the tree further along then it could impinge the approach from #2's fairway, complicating that option dramatically.


I think moving this tree would swing the balance of risk/reward enough to promote players driving down 17 fwy from 17 tee.




Said tree is on the left in this image - look for the trunk as it blends with one in the foreground.

[Bob Montle]

Or just cut it down.   

[Alex Miller]

Or just cut it down.   

Well that solves half the equation in my opinion, but it'd be a step in the right direction for making 17 fwy more inviting.

[Greg Stebbins]

I think a few things make playing left an obvious decision for the player.


1) The hole is 520 yards from the presumed US Open tee.  That tee is about 125 yards back and 30 feet higher than where that picture was taken.  Those trees would need to be really tall to prevent someone from hitting over them.


2) 17 is probably going to average close to 4.5 strokes for the week - if you can merely get the ball near the green in two shots in all four rounds you are probably going to pick up a fraction of a shot on the field.


3) Its not like the proper fairway provides a great angle into the green to hold a mid to long iron.  No matter what you have a forced  carry over bunkers to a narrow slice of green.


4) A ball hit in the penalty on the right is almost a certain double bogey


Some rolled back equipment that would allow this hole to be played at around 475 would seem to solve this issue IMO.