Royal Dornoch - New 7th hole in progress

[Lou_Duran]

Tim

It is an interesting concept isn't it? Make the course worse to make it better

To me it reads like a built in excuse for some indifferent golf. In any case, Dornoch has one or two more indifferent holes, the 18th perhaps coming too late for mental relief 😎.

Ciao

Rationalization.  It would take a very odd person to purposely build something bad to make the rest good in comparison.  The ODGs for the most part had limited financial and technological resources as well as time to design and build courses.


I concur with the last sentence.  Though #1 is a good hole to get things started, a gentle hand shake, a few holes later in the routing it may qualify as indifferent.  I've yet to learn to appreciate #18.  Like old 7, it is a challenge as well as a relief when I can get it done with bogie or better.  And I am still pondering #16, climbing the hill and avoiding the gorse on the right side and the quarry on the left. 


Jon,


Re: Torrey Pines, I don't subscribe to the opinion that Bell Jr. screwed the pooch by not routing the holes closely along and across the canyons.  The views from most places are outstanding.  A reason i think that some people talk down the course is that it is very demanding.  I am not big on Rees's green complexes and the kikuyu, IMO, works against variety of shots.


As to your last paragraph- "There seems to be certain subjects on this site where people are unable/afraid to have an honest, open discussion about or make any sort of criticism at all. Dornoch is one of those and it is a shame as it just make a 'dumb blonde' out of this website."- I have no idea where this is coming from.  Just because I and others don't agree with your reductionist view of golf architecture doesn't mean that we're afraid to engage in an open and frank discussion.

Regarding the importance of the visual and aesthetic qualities of site and how these affect our estimation of a golf course, I am reminded of an observation about Cypress Point attributed to Lanny Wadkins, paraphrasing: "Cypress without the Pacific is but another ordinary muni".  Unless you're pulling a Kavanaugh, I am surprised of your position.  BTW, I do believe that the new 7th will offer a lot more than better views.  Time will tell.

Bryan,

You are right about the wind.  And it did occur to me that the slicer will be "challenged" to a greater degree this year.  The proximity to the 10th hole and 11th tee is a concern expressed by one of the pros at the club, but I spent quite a bit of time walking along the cliff and I think it will be a rather minor problem.  As to Grannie's, we know that in Scotland, no wind is no golf.  But without a caravan park is a links a links?

[Steve Salmen]

Old #7: You finish 6, walk up a hill, and see a nice looking golf hole between a bunch of gorse.  It was a good hole, but not so memorable compared to the rest of the holes on the course.


New #7.   Now you see a nice looking hole, currently with some gorse on the left and a spectacular, panoramic sea view on the right.  The hole now plays slightly down hill, so that is interesting.  All in all, I think it will be a little better, certainly more memorable than the old hole.


I was skeptical until I walked it a few months ago.  Now, I think it's kind of like #4 at Pacific Dunes.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bryan,


I suppose time will tell on the new 7th but my experience of people looking for balls is at complete odds to your own. Looking at Marty's overhead photo (thanks Marty) I am surprised how close the 10th green is but hope they maintain the width of much of the old 7th up to the pot bunkers making them more centerline.


Lou,


it is difficult to disagree with an opinion when none are being expressed. Niall was the first to actually consider the playing qualities of the hole. Nice views are great but you do not play the view nor does the view have any strategy so in my opinion does not have anything to do with golf course architecture though does undoubtedly influence the experience. I was asking about the GCA but maybe I should have made that clearer. As for the views if they had removed the gorse the old 7th would have offered the same ones too and were they to allow the gorse to obscure the views on the new then I suppose that means it is no different to the old 

[Sean_A]

Tim

It is an interesting concept isn't it? Make the course worse to make it better

To me it reads like a built in excuse for some indifferent golf. In any case, Dornoch has one or two more indifferent holes, the 18th perhaps coming too late for mental relief .

Ciao

Rationalization.  It would take a very odd person to purposely build something bad to make the rest good in comparison.  The ODGs for the most part had limited financial and technological resources as well as time to design and build courses.

I concur with the last sentence.  Though #1 is a good hole to get things started, a gentle hand shake, a few holes later in the routing it may qualify as indifferent.  I've yet to learn to appreciate #18.  Like old 7, it is a challenge as well as a relief when I can get it done with bogie or better.  And I am still pondering #16, climbing the hill and avoiding the gorse on the right side and the quarry on the left. 

Sweet Lou

I am not a fan of 16, but I wouldn't say it is an indifferent hole. I can understand if others like it because it is a bit unusual. I don't have much time for 15 either, but I think it's a hole that has been spoiled a bit by technology. I like 1 a lot, great green complex.

Jon

I would disagree that beauty has nothing to do with architecture. If archies spend time and client money to make something more attractive and/or take advantage of views, then it's architecture.

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

Tim

It is an interesting concept isn't it? Make the course worse to make it better

To me it reads like a built in excuse for some indifferent golf. In any case, Dornoch has one or two more indifferent holes, the 18th perhaps coming too late for mental relief .

Ciao

Rationalization.  It would take a very odd person to purposely build something bad to make the rest good in comparison.  The ODGs for the most part had limited financial and technological resources as well as time to design and build courses.

I concur with the last sentence.  Though #1 is a good hole to get things started, a gentle hand shake, a few holes later in the routing it may qualify as indifferent.  I've yet to learn to appreciate #18.  Like old 7, it is a challenge as well as a relief when I can get it done with bogie or better.  And I am still pondering #16, climbing the hill and avoiding the gorse on the right side and the quarry on the left. 

Sweet Lou

I am not a fan of 16, but I wouldn't say it is an indifferent hole. I can understand if others like it because it is a bit unusual. I don't have much time for 15 either, but I think it's a hole that has been spoiled a bit by technology. I like 1 a lot, great green complex.

Jon

I would disagree that beauty has nothing to do with architecture. If archies spend time and client money to make something more attractive and/or take advantage of views, then it's architecture.

Ciao

Agree - I didn't remember how good that green complex on 1 was until my game there last year with David. I especially loved the back left of the green with that little depression.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I never said beauty had nothing to do with architecture I said you do not play the view. If the view is the best or only saving grace then it really does not say much about the architecture. I happen to be one of the few that had an appreciation for the 7th and the role it played in the entirety of the course. I am also one of the few to which I think you belong as well who think that the course has quite a few flaws especially when looked at in its entirety.


Just to be clear, I do not think the new 7th is a bad hole but rather question whether it is an improvement. An improved view is not a comment on the architecture of the hole but rather the gorse clearance. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I never said beauty had nothing to do with architecture I said you do not play the view. If the view is the best or only saving grace then it really does not say much about the architecture. I happen to be one of the few that had an appreciation for the 7th and the role it played in the entirety of the course. I am also one of the few to which I think you belong as well who think that the course has quite a few flaws especially when looked at in its entirety.

Just to be clear, I do not think the new 7th is a bad hole but rather question whether it is an improvement. An improved view is not a comment on the architecture of the hole but rather the gorse clearance.

In the case of the 7th, I would say the green was very good, but perhaps not enough to be a "saving grace".  Maybe a better view will improve its interest.  Unless the infinity green is very well executed I expect it won't make much difference for me because there are plenty of fine views on offer.  In would rather the club focus on removing gorse and connecting the 18th to the house, but its not my money     So far as making changes to holes because the club has cash sitting in the bank, the 7th wasn't a bad place to start.  If anything, I would suggest that perhaps the club didn't go far enough to distinguish the hole.

I probably have a much higher opinion of Dornoch than yourself.  For mine it is comfortably one the best 20 courses in GB&I that I have played....and comfortably in my Nifty Fifty favourite courses I have played.  Dornoch is far from perfect, but there are many wonderful holes and the greens are generally of a high degree of interest. 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Aren’t the ‘half way’ facilities by the current 9th green just below the new 7th green?
Oh the convenience!
Atb

[William_G]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edvpZ8SeWFU


can't wait to return to see and play


Cheers

[Tim Gallant]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edvpZ8SeWFU


can't wait to return to see and play


Cheers

William,

Thanks for posting! It's neat to see the process from start to finish and all the steps that went into creating the hole. Count me as someone who is eager to play it.

[David_Tepper]

William G -

Thanks for linking that video. I had not seen it before. Early in the video, when it shows shots of the area of the new green being dug up, you can see how the soil is so full of stones and rocks.

I suspect the fairway will not be as smooth as some think.

DT
 

[Mark Pearce]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well

Would you like to expand on why you think it's an improvement to either hole?

[Jon Wiggett]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well

Would you like to expand on why you think it's an improvement to either hole?

Exactly my thought too Mark. This is a website dedicated to the discussion of 'golf course architecture' and yet until the last few posts it has been just comments such as the one above. It is an improvement apparently but why? ?? The 8th will likely be an improvement as well though no reason is given ?? What is fantastic about the 6th we are left to wonder It may be that my answer will seem flippant yet there is often so much to learn and ponder so the wish to hear the reasoning behind an opinion is genuine. There is not much to learn from an 'AWESOME' but might be from the reason for it 


Sean,


if they have replicated the green and they haven't improved the hole tee to green (from viewing on the ground it looks pretty similar though I suspect it will drain better) then why do it? I think the golf club itself is one of the best in the country and the course is certainly in the top 10 for national competition with possibly just Muirfield, Carnoustie and Turnberry definitely ahead of it. I do however think it has a few flaws some of which a quite jarring and it is not my number one Links experience in the Highlands or even Sutherland though it the top course.

[David_Tepper]

Jon W. -

As I have mentioned here before, from an architectural stand point, the new #7 will be very similar to the old #7. However I believe the experience of playing the new #7 will be enhanced.

You are welcome to dismiss it as "golf porn" or "dumb blonde-ism," but the reality is the surroundings of a golf course and the views on offer can impact how a golfer perceives and enjoys a round of golf. Would teeing off on the Old Course be as thrilling if there was a MacDonald's hamburger stand behind the first tee instead of the R&A clubhouse? I doubt it.

Several times you mentioned a view could have been provided by simply cutting down all the (considerable!) gorse on the right side of the fairway. As you can see from the aerial photos, the right side of the old #7 fairway is 50 to 75 yards away from the edge of the upper level. The view from the old fairway would be in no way as expansive and thrilling as it will be from the new fairway.

The fact is, for a relatively modest sum, the club has been able to provide a more exciting (and likely more memorable) experience.


Regarding the changes planned for the 8th hole, they could not be done if the 7th hole was not moved.

DT 

[Sean_A]

Jon

It's fine if you don't accept the hoped for visual improvements on 7 and the new tee on 8 as real improvements. However, that is but one opinion.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

David, and others,


Was the existing routing of RD so lacking in views that this change will substantially improve the 18 hole experience?  I must admit (as someone who loves Dornoch, and has it in his top 10 world wide courses he has played) that I have never, on any of the dozen or so times I played the course, come off thinking "if only this course had better views it would make it so much better".  Am I alone in never having previously felt that it was the lack of sea views that held the course back?

[David_Tepper]

Mark P. -

It is not a question of whether or not the course was being "held back." It appears the consensus here is that the old 7th hole was boring and a bit of a plod. Since there was an opportunity to enhance (for a relatively modest expense) the experience of playing the hole (and also open the way to improving the 8th hole), why not do so?   


In my mind it is as simple as that.

DT

[Mark Pearce]

David,


But the new hole is, basically, the same old plod but with views.  I just don't get why that's seen as worthwhile?  I'm not sold on 8 being improved, either, to be honest.  I quite liked 8 as was.  Yes, an awkward tee shot but what's wrong with the odd awkward tee shot?

[Mark Mammel]

I'm with David. And while I have always liked 8, I will reserve judgement until I actually get to play the holes.

[David_Tepper]

But the new hole is, basically, the same old plod but with views.  I just don't get why that's seen as worthwhile?

Mark P. -

If my prior two posts did not answer your question, I don't know what more I can say. Some people will think the change will be worth it. Others will not.

I hope we all get to play the new hole some time soon. It will be interesting to see what people think once they have actually played it.

DT

[Bryan Izatt]

It seems to me that the old hole was widely regarded as pedestrian.  It was memorable, to me at least, for the walls of gorse down both sides and for an interesting green and approach.  The new version will be memorable, I guess without playing it, for the view and for the green since it is supposed to be a duplicate of the original.  The hole may still be pedestrian from an architectural point of view, but at least it'll be memorable for a positive reason - the view - rather than a negative one - the gorse walls.


David, you have referred several times to the relatively modest cost.  Any ballpark on what that cost was?  It looked like quite a lot of work and materials from the video.  Since they had the money and were willing to spend it, the resulting hole will be more aesthetically pleasing and certainly no worse than it's predecessor, so a worthwhile investment in the eyes of the membership?

[David_Tepper]

Bryan -

My reason for commenting on the cost was that almost all the work was done in-house by the greenskeeping staff during the winter months. I do not know what the actual cost of the new hole was or how it was accounted for. Frankly, it is no one's business but the club's.

DT
 

[William_G]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well

Would you like to expand on why you think it's an improvement to either hole?

This is more of a typing message board than a discussion in my estimation, but still worthwhile for golf folks. A Zoom meeting would more fruitful, yet less practical.



Anyone worth their salt takes a site and does what's best for the golf experience, same with designing and building anything.


Why the focus on 5 Mile Point at Sheep Ranch 2.0?


Ever wonder why 6 at Pebble was moved, any similarities here with 7 at RDGC? See a pattern?


Some things are just too painful to type about (I don't type) as they are self evident.


Like a friend said yesterday, "Beauty Just Is".


DT is spot on.


Cheers

[Mark Pearce]

very much an improvement for a person who plays golf, especially after that fantastic 6th


the 8th will likely be an improvement as well

Would you like to expand on why you think it's an improvement to either hole?

This is more of a typing message board than a discussion in my estimation, but still worthwhile for golf folks. A Zoom meeting would more fruitful, yet less practical.



Anyone worth their salt takes a site and does what's best for the golf experience, same with designing and building anything.


Why the focus on 5 Mile Point at Sheep Ranch 2.0?


Ever wonder why 6 at Pebble was moved, any similarities here with 7 at RDGC? See a pattern?


Some things are just too painful to type about (I don't type) as they are self evident.


Like a friend said yesterday, "Beauty Just Is".


DT is spot on.


Cheers

That's a long way of saying "No".

[Sean_A]

The cost to a club like Dornoch is nothing. The hole has no real architectural pedigree nor is one of the highlights of the course. The views will be improved and if the the infinity green comes off perhaps significantly. This work is small beer. I am astonished at the resistance. Do people really care that much or is the a case of faux outrage? Move on, the story was never much to speak of anyway.

Ciao