Royal Dornoch - New 7th hole in progress

[Jon Wiggett]

David,


the problem is that gorse grows back (believe me I know). I recall the gorse on the lower part of 17 down the right being cleared opening up the see views but though it has been kept back a few meters more it has alas grown back to it former glory hiding the sea. Gorse has about a 5 year growth pattern to reach 8-10 foot in height and as such is better kept down through a 6 month mow.


Sean,


whilst I do agree with it not being so bad using similar clubs and that 2,6 & 13 are excellent holes requiring a good shot they all require a very similar shot which becomes stale over time. It is the lack of diversity that is the negative not the individual holes (except 10). I have often compared RDGC with my favourite inland course Alwoodley. Alwoodley's 18 hole experience is greater than the sum of it's individual holes and much of this is down to the routing, rhythm and variety of the course. RDGC is decidedly the opposite, for whilst most of the individual holes are great it does get a little repetitive and the rhythm is not great. I worry that the changes on the 8th will further upset the flow of the course.

I agree wholeheartedly with the gorse issue though it's chemical qualities is a new one for me.



Jon

[Niall C]

I’m maybe an outlier but of the RDGC par 3’s I’d put them in the following order;
 
13^th
2^nd
6^th
10^th
 
I think the 13^th is a charming hole that maybe has more of a bite than first seen. I suspect it also offers a greater variety in terms of recovery shots than you’d get on 2 or 6, and I suspect most of them would be more manageable also.
 
The 2^nd is a good strong hole and the green landform is enough really to make it so. If I was gca for the day I’d blooter all the gorse on the right but leave the stuff on the left, if only to hide the road/houses etc. There’s maybe some inherent bias in that as most of my misses tend to be right.
 
The 6^th is another strong hole but not one that particularly appeals to me for some reason. From memory the gorse on the left was more or less right down to the green/bunkers last time I was there. I’d blooter that as well to allow recovery shots which would be hellish difficult but at least a contrast from playing below the hole (have I ever mentioned that there’s too many plateau greens at Dornoch ?).
 
I think everyone else has adequately nailed the short comings with the 10^th. The only objection I have to Seans description is calling it a downwind hole. It’s only a downwind hole when the winds blowing downwind ! Even if the hole played the opposite way I’d have the same objection since on a links you are going to get winds blowing all ways at some point. What I’d love to know, and maybe Rich could answer this, but has the front cross bunker always been there ?
 
Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean,

whilst I do agree with it not being so bad using similar clubs and that 2,6 & 13 are excellent holes requiring a good shot they all require a very similar shot which becomes stale over time. It is the lack of diversity that is the negative not the individual holes (except 10). I have often compared RDGC with my favourite inland course Alwoodley. Alwoodley's 18 hole experience is greater than the sum of it's individual holes and much of this is down to the routing, rhythm and variety of the course. RDGC is decidedly the opposite, for whilst most of the individual holes are great it does get a little repetitive and the rhythm is not great. I worry that the changes on the 8th will further upset the flow of the course.


Jon

While similar in length, 2 & 6 are very different holes imo.  The 2nd is uphill and the 6th downhill.  To me, the yardages will play a bit differently because of this.  Whack the gorse on the right of the 2nd and these holes belong on a short list of Scotland's best par 3s.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I must play a different course to you as I would consider both to be more or less flat as the height difference tee to green can't be much over 10'. Having played both holes quite a few times (30 odd) both have always required within half a club of each other. Both holes require the player to hit it straight or face an extremely difficult recovery shot. Both holes do offer the option of laying up. Both set the same challenge and dish out the same punishment. Peas in a pod to me. I do not recognise your description of them beyond you proclaiming one of them farts whilst the other breaks wind

Niall,


pretty much what it was. They have cut back the gorse up the slope to the left of 6 but it is still not a generous margin of error. I would prefer them to fill in one or both of the bunkers on the left leaving a little swale.


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Good to hear the newbies arguing!


As for the 3's, I'd rank them in order of goodGCAness 2, 10, 6, 13.


13 is a hole-in-one magnet--get the line and length OK and you too could win a pony!  Short is a chunk, left is a duck hook, right is a strong fade/J Arthur Rank swing and long is just unlucky.


6 is a 1/2 model of the 2nd.  The gorse used to come up to the bunkers on the left, and the hole is now dumbed down.  Tricky putting surface with a cute little patch where short putts seemingly go uphill.


10 is a gem.  The wind  goes two ways (for the whole course) and 10-into requires a very solid straight hit for line and good judgement for length.  10-down (which the newbies seem to hate) requires thought and feeds self-doubt.  If you can really spin the ball, landing in the bottom tier will leave you with a birdie putt, and even if you can just sorta spin the ball will keep you on the upper tier where a putt (into the wind) gives you a could chance for a par.  If you cannae spin the ball, hit the tee shot short and if you're lucky it might bounce over the front bunkers and if it goes in the pits, your 2nd shot is a simple one which will lead to a 3 or a 4.  In all cases, don't go right.  The recovery requires great technique or luck.  Left and long are OK, but also require technique and a lowering of expectations.


2 is the best par three I have ever played.  Options galore and results all over the map between the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.


In general (getting back OT), gorse clearance at RD started in the 80's  The 7th used to have half the width we see today.  That's when the dumbing down began.......


Rich

[Niall C]

Rich
 
I think you also adequately outline the shortcomings of the 10^th. What you are saying, it seems to me, is that if you aren’t a very good player it’s just pot luck whether you get on the green. If the ability to hit a lot of spin is a pre-requisite then it reduces most to just a hit and hope. Not my definition of a great hole. Certainly not a very interesting one for us average golfers IMO.
 
Niall


ps. with regards to Dornoch I prefer to be classed as an infrequent visitor rather than a newbie. Considering my first visit was nearly 50 years ago I don't think I quite qualify for that tag !

[Rich Goodale]

Mr. Infrequent Visitor


My comment on the need for spin on #10 is only relevant the 5% of time the the wind is howling behind you.  The rest of the time (0-1 club wind from either direction), you only need to hit a 140-150 yard shot into a 33 yard deep green sloping significantly back to front.  If you  miss the green under these normal conditions it's your fault, not the architect's.


Mr. Frequent Visitor (insert smiley face here)

[John Crowley]

IMO the quality rank is 2, 6, 10, 13.


Yes, they all are similar mid-length par 3’s. They all however present nuanced problems. Any one of them save possibly 13 would be a standout mid-length par 3 on any other course.


Only things I would like to see would be cutting back whins near any of these greens to at least present an opportunity to hit a great recovery shot from an off line tee shot. And, eliminate the center pot fronting the 10th to  allow for the strategic bounce on from the tee.


Taken as a group, the best (my favorite) set of threes seen so far, in 59 years and xxx? courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

Good to hear the newbies arguing!

Classy Rich,


but if I am a newbie then I guess you must be too.

[Rich Goodale]

Good to hear the newbies arguing!

Classy Rich,


but if I am a newbie then I guess you must be too.

Thanks, Jon.  Us newbies learn something (or should) every time we play any golf course, but particularly on courses which are subtle and protean.


My recent post was just to defend poor little #10 which has taken a bashing on this thread.  You obviously disagree with me, but vive la difference!


Rich

[Jon Wiggett]

Indeed Rich,


I am certainly of the opposite opinion of the 10th to yourself. I wonder how much of the way I perceive it to play is down to the short height of cut on the green combined with the way the ball plays? Last time I played it was a 1 to 2 club downwind and I nipped a perfect wedge off the deck which landed in the first foot of flat green coming to rest about two foot from the back edge. I could not have hit a better shot. The other three playing with me ended up through the back, one after hoping the front bunker.


Easy solution is what I have advocated before (as have others) that the front bunker be converted to a hollow.


I agree that the 2nd is the pick of the bunch though probably not the best par three I have played.


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Jon

Please accept my deepest condolences regarding you and your pals being unable to put enough to spin on the ball with a pitching wedge in a modest downwind zephyr (pace Bob Huntley).  Maybe next time you and your pals should try the "MacKenzie putter into the front ("not a pot") bunker and then an easy up and down to the front bowl strategy"?

Trying to be helpful.

Rih

[Jon Wiggett]

Rich,


thanks for the advice which kind of proves the lack of strategy offered by this dismal excuse for a hole. I appreciate I no longer play golf to the same standard as you do so am not to be able to create enough spin to stop the ball. Though handing out such nuggets of advice such as laying up in the (not pot) bunker in front of the green

.

Still it is difficult to remember how I played aged 12

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,


thanks for the advice which kind of proves the lack of strategy offered by this dismal excuse for a hole. I appreciate I no longer play golf to the same standard as you do so as not to be able to create enough spin to stop the ball though and hand out such nuggets of advice such as l

aying up in the (not pot) bunker in front of the green

.

Still it is difficult to remember how I played aged 12

Jon


If you ever come close to my dismal standards, take up petanque, which I am in the process of doing.


r

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't think you are quite so bad and at least better at golf than my dismal attempt at writing as shown in my last post.

[David_Tepper]

One of the problems with the 10th green is that so much sand has been thrown out of the fronting bunkers that the front fringe and first 2-3 feet of the green have become elevated and actually pitch downhill, rather than uphill, into the green surface. A shot that lands in this area is propelled forward, rather than being slowed down by an upward sloping green surface.

If the tops of the bunkers and front portion of the green were lowered, an upward sloping portion of the front of the green could be created, which would make it easier for shots landing in that area to hold the green. My guess is that was how the green was designed and played many years ago.   

[Rich Goodale]

Good point David, but I'm pretty sure that the Greenskeepers have shaved down that front sand flash on #10 RDGC periodically.  It's nothing like the 9th at Merion East which was an impossible hole to a front position when I last saw it 15+ years ago.

[David_Tepper]

Twitter pics of the new #7 green growing in:

https://twitter.com/RoyalDornochGC/status/1003704946431352832/photo/1
 

[James Brown]

Twitter pics of the new #7 green growing in:
https://twitter.com/RoyalDornochGC/status/1003704946431352832/photo/1

Anyone got a picture of the 7th tee currently? 




And what are they gonna do with the current 7th green when the new hole is opened?


Going back for 3 more rounds at Dornoch in early August.

[David_Tepper]

"And what are they gonna do with the current 7th green when the new hole is opened?"James B. -

The Ebert & Mackenzie plan is to move the tee of the 8th hole to roughly where the current 7th green is located. The area behind the current 7th green will be cleared out and become part of the upper fairway of the 8th hole.

DT

[Jon Wiggett]

"And what are they gonna do with the current 7th green when the new hole is opened?"James B. -

The Ebert & Mackenzie plan is to move the tee of the 8th hole to roughly where the current 7th green is located. The area behind the current 7th green will be cleared out and become part of the upper fairway of the 8th hole.

DT

I think the 8th hole will be the real improvement in this whole swap around though it could have been done without altering the 7th IMO

[Niall C]

I don't know if it was mentioned in this thread or a previous thread but the club got planning permission previously to take 6,000 tonnes of sand from an area south of the caravan park to use to build a golf hole. I'm not really conversant with volume and what that will look like but presumably enough to sandcap the whole of the new 7th ?

Niall

[David_Tepper]

"I'm not really conversant with volume and what that will look like but presumably enough to sandcap the whole of the new 7th?"

Niall -

The soil/land on the upper level of the course (under both the current 7th fairway and the new 7th fairway) is full of stones and rocks. My guess is there will be some effort made to improve the profile of the soil to help it both grow grass and drain better.

DT

[Marty Bonnar]

From about 200 yards out. Very pebbly/stony subsoil - which should aid drainage though.
That's a topsoil heap on the left. Existing 7th fairway immediately left of that gorse.

[Rich Goodale]

The land on which Old 7th and New 7th are based is not linksland.  They are raised beaches (as are 1, 2, the first 200yards of 8 and 17, 16 green, and 18).  They do not drain as well as the lower holes.  In heavy rains, 8 and 17 greens get flooded quickly, but just as quickly drain.  In such conditions the first 200 of 8 and 17 are infected with "slime," which is not fun to play from nor walk on.  1 and 7 fairways have enough movement to shed water and remain safe.  Hope that the new 7th will be shaped properly rather than becoming just another slime trap.