Foursomes and architecture

[jeffwarne]

Just spent 3 days playing mainly foursomes.


Loved it-didn't think I would




advantages-feel free to add more
1.speed of play-important for golf trips to the UK/Ireland where pace of play is generally quicker-though not always
2.more time to observe architecture-especially from landing zone-something I can be lax about especially in the UK/Ireland when trying to herd 4 Americans around at a UK/Ireland pace of play
3.competition and team play
4.strategy of who plays odds or evens
5.strategy of who's good at the next shot-example I'm pretty good out of the rough(because I'm used to it) so my partner can be more aggressive...or he can go for a pin because I have a good short game and short sided or bunkers don't concern me
6. more relaxing-can relax when others hitting tee shots on tight holes



Are there courses more suited to this format?
I would argue a highly penal courses isn't but then I hate them anyway
Interestingly at Deal all three par 3's were evens so the same guy hit the tee shot all three times

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield (where most of the golf played is foursomes) has two paths off every green.  One to the next tee and one to the fairway (or green) for the player not hitting the tee shot to walk on.  Speeds things up even more.

[Tim Martin]

It is appealing to me but not on the first play somewhere. I have played some different variations but always in a tournament format and not everyday play as is the custom in the U.S. It is compelling in the Ryder Cup and my favorite format to watch. Having the right/compatible partner becomes a little more important.

[jeffwarne]

It is appealing to me but not on the first play somewhere. I have played some different variations but always in a tournament format and not everyday play as is the custom in the U.S. It is compelling in the Ryder Cup and my favorite format to watch. Having the right/compatible partner becomes a little more important.

We played it on our first look at Deal-and it was great.
Perhaps the 5 hour morning round at Princes added to our zeal of the fast format , Busy place
Deal has very few shortcuts as it's an out and back course-we tried to stay well ahead but it could be difficult with close tees and few shortcuts and no one in front slowing us to allow time to get far out in the landing zone
Some courses have many cut throughs as Mark suggests at Muirfield-essentially the same as caddy cut throughs

[Tim Martin]

The Connecticut State Golf Association uses a foursomes format for both of their father-son tournaments each year and they are extremely popular.

[Tom_Doak]

I get a lot of grief from The Renaissance Club that 9, 13,15 and 17 are all odd numbered par 3 holes.  Not something I'm used to thinking about!


I love foursomes play for all the reasons Jeff talked about, plus one more that is important at Muirfield- you only spend half as much time looking for balls in the rough, and you have a partner forecaddying on those!

[jeffwarne]

I get a lot of grief from The Renaissance Club that 9, 13,15 and 17 are all odd numbered par 3 holes.  Not something I'm used to thinking about!


I love foursomes play for all the reasons Jeff talked about, plus one more that is important at Muirfield- you only spend half as much time looking for balls in the rough, and you have a partner forecaddying on those!

Given the proximity to Muirfield, that could be a real error-perhaps a local rule for foursomes might solve that
i.e. I take evens except on 13 -then you take 14
the forecaddy thing and less ball searching is a real plus

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pleased you're having a good time at Deal, Jeff.


Foursomes is the most sociable form of golf.  In 4bbb the partners tend to be friends and naturally converse with each other a lot. In foursomes you spend more time than a singles match allows, chatting to your new friend.  In my experience they will at some point tell you something about their partner, so that when you sit down for lunch you are a unit of 4.

[Rich Goodale]

Foursomes is the most sociable form of golf.

How right you are, Tony.


My first game of foursomes was in 1981 at Rye.  My opponent (q doctor) informed me greatly about the course, the club, British politics and the state of the world.  I bought the lunch, and he invited me to his home for dinner with his family and a bed for the night.  The next morning, just before my drive to Westward Ho! he showed me a barrel in his garage which held ~50 hickories and he told me to take any one I wanted.  I demurred but he insisted and I still have the "anti-shank" mashie that I chose and have played occasionally..


This sort of thing just doesn't happen at Cypress Point, or NGLA, or Shinencock or Merion or Myopia, or Mullen and would be heresy at places like Bandon and Pinehurst and Pebble Beach and even Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.


Sic transit gloria golfing....


Rich

[John Kavanaugh]

Pajo,


While it may have been heresy, my first round ever at Pacific Dunes was Foursomes. Boo hoo, I didn't get to tee off on a Doak.

[Steve Lang]

   I think that in USA, there'd be more time spent trying to figure out how the name foursomes versus alternate shot ever made any sense than on gca features...   let alone folks worrying about where their partner just put them!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Foursomes is highly unpopular with the modern golfer. The time restrictions the modern golfer has means when they play they want a full game, they see Foursomes has half a game.


Our county league is Foursomes, which is the only time anyone plays foursomes at our place. If the match is midweek the feeling is that the golfer would not have had the time to have played 18 holes himself so they quite like the 3 hour fast track, but weekend matches cause problems in raising a team as the thought pattern is often "I can only afford one game at the weekend and I want to play 18 holes".


In the UK at most places, foursomes is rarely played casually now and it only really exists for most at county amateur level, some clubs still have an annual trophy event but it has a 'marmite' feel and often only 50% the entry of a standard medal. We play Greensome and Bluesome events both of which involve everyone hitting tee shots but not enough want the true pairs game. 90% of our casual play is in fours but everyone plays their ball.

[jeffwarne]

Foursomes is highly unpopular with the modern golfer. The time restrictions the modern golfer has means when they play they want a full game, they see Foursomes has half a game.

Adrian,
Sadly, I do think that is conventional wisdom.
I find it incredibly ironic that "golf takes too long" is the most frequently cited reason for millenials and others reducing their play.
Another reason is often the "advantages" of team cameraderie in team sports draw kids away..


Here's a team event that takes way less time and fills courses with more bodies.
The perfect solution it would seem for players and operators.


especially for those who hate posting an individual score due to low skill.


Seems such a waste.


talked about it for 30 minutes on my radio show today.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian - Foursomes maybe unpopular in your market but it certainly isn't in ours. Deal has a healthy membership in the 21-35 year old age group and only last week a young guy was being interviewed for membership. He arrived suitably attired with his proposer and I'm sure will get in, I'm led to believe he's been at a US college and plays off +3 at a good club. The majority of member golf he alternate shot so he's clearly not put off by it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian - Foursomes maybe unpopular in your market but it certainly isn't in ours. Deal has a healthy membership in the 21-35 year old age group and only last week a young guy was being interviewed for membership. He arrived suitably attired with his proposer and I'm sure will get in, I'm led to believe he's been at a US college and plays off +3 at a good club. The majority of member golf he alternate shot so he's clearly not put off by it.

One swallow does not make a summer though Mark. Step outside the box and look in. Foursomes is not a big hit with the masses. I like foursomes too but only in the competitive team format and if I was playing Deal I and especially if it was my first time would want to play my own ball.
We have three teams in the county league around 60 members play over the year, midweek after 1730 they love it, weekends they don't. It is not the format they don't like, they just feel 50% robbed.

[Thomas Dai]

We play Greensome and Bluesome events both of which involve everyone hitting tee shots but not enough want the true pairs game.

Adrian,
What's a Bluesomes format? Maybe I know it under another name?
atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

We play Greensome and Bluesome events both of which involve everyone hitting tee shots but not enough want the true pairs game.

Adrian,
What's a Bluesomes format? Maybe I know it under another name?
atb

Bluesome : All players play two shots before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate (foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.5 of lower hcp + 0.2 of higher hcp
Greensome : All players play one shot before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate ( foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.6 of lower hcp + 0.4 of higher hcp

[Duncan Cheslett]

When my wife first started playing golf, we'd go out for a social round playing alternate shots and she loved it. It takes a lot of the pressure off a beginner and allows them to get round fairly quickly.


Now that she has achieved a degree of competence however, she hates foursome or greensome formats. We have played in a number of Mixed Greensome competitions this season and she has made me promise not to enter us in any next year.


She hates the feeling of letting our side down whenever she hits a bad shot, and is deprived of the occasional glory she feels in 4bbb when getting a par for 4 points!

[Thomas Dai]

We play Greensome and Bluesome events both of which involve everyone hitting tee shots but not enough want the true pairs game.

Adrian,
What's a Bluesomes format? Maybe I know it under another name?
atb

Bluesome : All players play two shots before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate (foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.5 of lower hcp + 0.2 of higher hcp
Greensome : All players play one shot before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate ( foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.6 of lower hcp + 0.4 of higher hcp

Thanks Adrian. I have indeed played this format but under another name (although I can't recall what the organisers termed it).


Curious that some reckon foursomes/alternate shots is particularly sociable. Seems to me like you only ever really get to chat with one of the other pair.


atb

[David Davis]

Jeff,


Hard to be in Deal and not mentioned Royal St. Georges as a perfect foursomes club. They two have everything set up for foursomes and in fact it's one of the very few places I have actually played it on one of my trips.


What a memorable day that was!


Another great 4 ball club is West Sussex!


Otherwise, here in NL we play it during national club competition but only at the higher levels. We play morning foursomes and afternoon singles. I love the format for competition, perfect warm up for the afternoon singles.


I struggle with it on trips if I don't know the course and haven't played it many times.


More social as previously mentioned which is great but very hard to get your own rhythm and I struggle to multitask anyway with paying close attention to architecture, snapping quick photos etc.

[Jerry Kluger]

Let me ask the obvious question: If you are there to play a course for the first and only time such as Muirfield and you don't even get to see half of the tee boxes, how are you going to appreciate the architecture of the course? But say you decide to at least go to every tee box, will you be missing at least part of the experience of understanding the design of the course? Which brings us to the basic question of whether you need to play a course to appreciate the design?  By no means I am saying that I don't enjoy foursomes but I do feel that doing so at a course that you will be playing only one time really diminishes the experience.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We play Greensome and Bluesome events both of which involve everyone hitting tee shots but not enough want the true pairs game.

Adrian,
What's a Bluesomes format? Maybe I know it under another name?
atb

Bluesome : All players play two shots before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate (foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.5 of lower hcp + 0.2 of higher hcp
Greensome : All players play one shot before the pair decide which ball is in play then they play alternate ( foursome format) from there. hcp allowance 0.6 of lower hcp + 0.4 of higher hcp

Thanks Adrian. I have indeed played this format but under another name (although I can't recall what the organisers termed it).


Curious that some reckon foursomes/alternate shots is particularly sociable. Seems to me like you only ever really get to chat with one of the other pair.


atb

There is also a yellowsome as well but it can only be played in match play format and needs good players. Your opponents choose what drive you play....not heard anyone playing that for years but its a great game to impact pressure on the tee shot. You can play Yellowball which is singles as well where you hit two tee shots and your opponent chooses which one you play.

[Tom_Doak]

Let me ask the obvious question: If you are there to play a course for the first and only time such as Muirfield and you don't even get to see half of the tee boxes, how are you going to appreciate the architecture of the course? But say you decide to at least go to every tee box, will you be missing at least part of the experience of understanding the design of the course? Which brings us to the basic question of whether you need to play a course to appreciate the design?  By no means I am saying that I don't enjoy foursomes but I do feel that doing so at a course that you will be playing only one time really diminishes the experience.

Do you ever watch the other guys' shots, or just your own?

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I was being a bit of a contrarian in my post and I certainly watch other players' shots but it simply isn't the same as playing the entire hole yourself.  Remember: the title of this thread is "Foursomes and architecture" so the discussion concerns how foursomes affect architecture or perhaps your understanding the architecture/design of a hole.  I have no problem with playing foursomes but I question whether you can fully appreciate or understand the architecture if you don't play a hole yourself.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Foursomes is a terrific format for club play and/or something you regularly frequent.


But could you imagine making the trip to Riv and not being able to tee off on 10?
Or getting an invite to CPC and not trying the tee shot on 16?