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mark chalfant

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Orrin Smith
« on: September 03, 2017, 09:54:24 PM »

Ive been impressed with Smith's  construction work. especially Shuttle Meadow in CT.    What are some of the most interesting golf courses that he designed  ?


thank you !

Ted Sirbaugh

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 10:51:42 PM »
I believe Smith designed the 9 hole course at Suffield Country Club... the par 5 5th is one of the more confusing holes I've seen, but there are also several solid holes with some interesting greens... I recall the 8th (a neat par 3 with a challenging recovery shot), and the 4th (a short par 4 with a very good green) being my two favorite holes on the course

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 10:52:05 PM »
Mark,


Orrin Smith was a native of Connecticut and did a lot of design work throughout the state.  Some of my favorite designs are Torrington Country Club in Torrington, CT, Birchwood (9 holer) in Westport, Longshore in Westport and Highfield Club (9 holer) in Middlebury.  He redesigned many courses in the state or added nines such as adding  9 holes at Madison CC, redesigning 9 holes at Wethersfield CC and his 9 holes at Rockrimmon are very good.  He also recontoured  many of the greens and added hazards at Indian Hill Country Club in Newington which I just played for the first time a few weeks ago.  I am sure I left out a few, but overall his work is very solid. 


Bret

Tim Martin

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 06:51:39 AM »
Mark,


Orrin Smith was a native of Connecticut and did a lot of design work throughout the state.  Some of my favorite designs are Torrington Country Club in Torrington, CT, Birchwood (9 holer) in Westport, Longshore in Westport and Highfield Club (9 holer) in Middlebury.  He redesigned many courses in the state or added nines such as adding  9 holes at Madison CC, redesigning 9 holes at Wethersfield CC and his 9 holes at Rockrimmon are very good.  He also recontoured  many of the greens and added hazards at Indian Hill Country Club in Newington which I just played for the first time a few weeks ago.  I am sure I left out a few, but overall his work is very solid. 


Bret


Bret-Highfield is one of my favorite nine holers anywhere. Smith also did the Blue Nine at Tumblebrook as well as Woodbridge CC.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 02:31:52 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 03:37:06 PM »

Mark,


Here's one that might be overlooked as it was lost to housing in the mid '80s. It was a complete remodeling of an older course that was built in the '20s and was located in Carmel, NY, adjacent to what is now Centennial CC. A friend of mine (Brad Davis, pro at James Baird) who passed away last year is the only person I know who played it, and he always liked it.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:39:22 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 08:24:42 PM »
A list of his courses (I'll add in the others mentioned in this thread in a bit):


Birchwood GC (Westport, CT)
Indian Hill CC oka Sequin GC (New Britain, CT) - 1926 Annual Guide notes he was the construction superintendent for the rebuilt course.
Longshore Beach & CC (Westport, CT)
Private Course for Louis Stoner (West Hartford, CT)
Salmon Brook CC (Granby, CT) - An 18 hole course, a 9 hole ladies course and an additional 9 hole course.
Suffield CC (Suffield, CT)
Sunset Ridge CC (East Hartford, CT)
Torrington CC (Torrington, CT)
Woodbridge CC (Woodbridge, CT)


Macdonald Park Municipal Course (Wichita, KS) - Renovation work in 1938.
Milburn G&CC (Overland Park, KS) - Remodeled the Langford course in 1925.
Wyandotte CC (Kansas City, KS)


Cedar Glen GC (Saugus, MA) - Given credit along with Stiles and Van Kleek.
Framingham CC (Framingham, MA) - Supposedly did work on this Findlay design.
Needham GC (Needham, MA) - Credited as working on this Wayne Stiles course.
North Adams CC (North Adams, MA) - Worked here in 1939.
Oak Hill CC (Fitchburg, MA) - Work done in 1938.
Ould Newburyport GC (Newburyport, MA) - Work in 1939.
Unicorn CC (Stoneham, MA) - Work in 1937.
Vesper CC (Lowell, MA) - Work in 1939.
Wenham GC (Wenham, MA) - Work in 1938.


Rocky Point GC (??, MD) - Need more info on this one.


Augusta CC (Augusta, ME) - Worked here in 1939.
Mount Kineo GC (Kineo, ME) - Work in 1940.
Portland CC (Portland, ME) - Credited with work here in 1940.
Waterville CC (Waterville, ME) - Work in 1938.


Lynnhaven GC (Kansas City, MO) - Private course on an estate, work done in 1928.
Metro GC fka Blue Hills GC (Kansas City, MO) - Work in 1925.
Oakwood CC fka Progress CC (Kansas City, MO) - Constructed greens with V. Miller for the new 9 holes in 1927.


Claremont CC (Claremont, NH) - Worked here in 1936.
Dover CC (Dover, NH) - Work in 1934.
Hanover CC (Hanover, NH) - Work in 1937.
John H. Cain GC (Newport, NH) - Work in 1937.
Laconia CC (Laconia, NH) - Work in 1938.
Lake Sunapee CC (New London, NH) - Work in 1934.
Lebanon GC (??, NH) - Work in 1937.
Rochester GC (Gonic, NH) - Work in 1939.


River Vale CC (River Vale, NJ) - Original design in 1931.


Fresh Meadow CC (Great Neck, NY) - Work here in 1938.
Huntington Crescent CC (Huntington, NY) Work here in 1939.
Plandome CC (Plandome, NY) - Original design in 1930.


Columbus CC (Columbus, OH) - Work here in 1937.


Newport CC (Newport, RI) - Work here in 1939.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:12:12 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 12:37:12 PM »
Longshore is very good. I believe all the holes, except for one on the back which had the tee shot changed for safety reasons, are intact. A rebunkering project was put out to bid last year.

 The second nine at Tumble Brook, is excellent but I'm convinced those holes were built to Willie Park's original plans. I have two Hartford Courant stories that say the design is 18 and one gives the yardages for the back nine. Smith did a wonderful job blending his holes with the existing ones.

Oak Hills in Norwalk is an odd design, built on a bad piece of land. The tee shots on most of the holes are awful but the second, approach and greens are fantastic.

Smith's bunkering is an interesting style as indicated by old aerials of his courses. I enjoy playing his work.

BCrosby

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 02:04:11 PM »
Good thread. I knew next to nothing about Orrin Smith.


1958 was a long time ago, but does anyone know if any of his files, drawings, notes, etc. still exist?


Bob

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 04:16:02 PM »
The courses on my listing are predominantly those which Smith worked on prior to 1940. 


There's a course I've never heard of called Empire State CC located near Spring Valley, NY which was in the works in the 1960's.  No idea if the 27 hole project ever came to fruition.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 11:27:13 PM »
Sven,


Empire State CC came to fruition.  The 27 hole course was located where New York Country Club is today.  The additional nine holes were north of the existing course.  You can see the course on historic aerials. In the mid-90's, Stephen Kay built the course that exists today. I am not sure if he left any original work?


The course was a project of John Handwerg, who developed several courses, starting in the depression.  His first course was River Vale CC, built on his family farm when farming wasn't paying the bills.  He later bought the Kessler Estate in River Vale and developed the Country Club of New Jersey, which today is the home of Edgewood Country Club.  Their website has a lot of information on John Handwerg, but there is no mention of Orrin Smith. 


I recall seeing a N.Y. Times article on the Empire State CC and the article highlighted that Handwerg had owned several clubs over the years and Orrin Smith designed his courses.  I will try to find the article.


Orrin Smith also designed the first nine holes at East Hartford Country Club in 1929, today the course is known as East Hartford Golf Club.


Salmon Brook, the Louis Stoner Estate and Woodbridge can be classified as NLE.  Woodbridge just closed this year.


Tony,


Sven's list mentions Oak Hill In Massachusetts.  Oak Hill in Norwalk, Connecticut is an Alfred Tull course.  Tull lived in Norwalk for many years. I know you know that! Your explanation of the course is spot on.


Bret




Bret Lawrence

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 11:02:16 AM »
Here is an article from The Hartford Daily Courant-September 14, 1924 discussing work to be carried out by Orrin Smith at Sequin, which today is known as Indian Hill. Robert Jack Ross, another local architect had recently redesigned the layout and was a member of the club during this time.
The article also lists some of the courses Smith constructed while working with Donald Ross.



The second article describes the relationship between John Handwerg and Orrin Smith and some of Handwerg's golf courses, including Empire State CC.


V. Kmetz

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2017, 06:21:41 PM »
Re: Rockrimmon CC - Stamford CT.


Orrin Smith's contribution to Rockrimmon is unique in that he "finished" the RTJ course in 1953, which was operating as a 9 hole layout in its first four seasons from 1949. RTJ did have a master plan for finishing the "lower holes" (it hangs in the Super's office), but Smith substantially changed those plans in realizing an 18 hole course.


Specifically, Smith is wholly responsible for the (since 1953) iteration of the 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th holes and slighter but evident alterations to RTJ 18-hole plans for the  16th and 17th. 


There may also have been sublime changes to Jones' plan for a new (18 hole) routing of  the 3rd (which brings the golfer to the post 1953 section of the course in the valley, but when it was a 9-hole course was a boomerang dogleg right that did not go to the valley) as well as subtle changes to the 14th and 18th.


So the lineup goes like this


1, 2, 8* 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 - These are the 8 original Jones holes dating to 1949 inaugural season.
  • the other original was an amalgam of the current 3rd and 14th.
  • *the 8th's tee was angled into a dogleg by Smith, when new property was made available to the club that Jones did not have to work with


3, 14, 15 and 18 - These are the holes planned by Jones and largely executed without revision by Smith in 1952-3, when it expanded to a full eighteen.


4**, 5, 6, 7 16, and 17 - these are holes substantially altered from RTJ's plan for 18 as conceived/built by Smith.
  • (** #4, as built by Smith, was mostly a Jones design, but the realization of the crossing water hazard at 235 off the tee was substantially different as was the precise angle and yardge(s) from the Smith realization of the tee boxes...all of this enough so that I'm assigning him ownership of "revision" on that one).


Having worked and played at Rockrimmon for hundreds and hundreds of rounds, there is little question to me that the Smith holes are by a large margin, the most inferior holes on the course... However, I'm not sure that the Jones plan would have yielded any better results...the problem both architects faced was how to get "back up" from the "valley" section of the 1953 18 hole course, a valley into which a player descends and emerges twice, once on each nine.


And as pleasing as the 3rd and 15th are in descending a 100 foot drop, to a distant par 5 green, with a tree top view for miles, as a golf matter, the holes that must re-ascend that gorgeous drop are going to be a strain on the architecture...for Jones or Smith.


Smith also was compelled to change the original Jones' plans for the 5th, when the club (in an excavation deal that yielded a profit from the soil sold) built "Lake Calmon" (a 125,000 sq foot surface pond of 15 feet in depth) in a place where Jones' 5th hole was to traverse.


So Smith, had some handicaps...still his greens are gorgeous on those holes (excepting the 4th which is plain), greens that pay fealty to the Jones largess and sweep of contour while striking a unique visual approach presentation.


Rockrimmon is an ultra-unique, if imperfect course, of an under-the-radar club that deserves a picture profile/tour, which I'll try to gather for all sometime later in the autumn.


cheers   vk











"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tim Martin

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2017, 06:33:01 PM »
VK-Rockrimmon always looks sweet off of Long Ridge Road. That is a pretty comprehensive and insightful look into the holes. I'm a fan of Smith and think he learned well from Donald Ross.

V. Kmetz

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 07:47:20 PM »
VK-Rockrimmon always looks sweet off of Long Ridge Road. That is a pretty comprehensive and insightful look into the holes. I'm a fan of Smith and think he learned well from Donald Ross.


Rockrimmon is sweet TM. The purely Jones holes 1,2, 8, 9 and 10-15 are first rate golf holes; and outside of 16 and 17 (which is unfortunate), I think most first-visit golfers can recall each hole upon that first play. So even the less desirable or average holes have a memorability to them and generally in good stead.


Roger Rulewitch's renovation treatment of bunkers, tees and a handful of greens (1, 8, 10) has been a true enhancement.  Rockrimmon was an early signer of a tree removal program for a course site that may have been one of the first conceived in the "course beautiful" style and thus, one of the first hoisted by their own petard, 50 years down the line - and sorely in need of such a program.


I was the caddiemaster there for 11 seasons before I returned to school and got my teaching bona fides, and it was the hardest decision I had to make in my life to leave as I thoroughly enjoyed playing, and watching the members play, golf there.


And because Tim made the "looks sweet" comment, I have to give public acknowledgement of Tony Girardi, the extant Super, now there for 22+ seasons. Long ago, Rockrimmon was something of a maintenance joke for its frequent problems, loss of turf, ill-fated solutions etc. In those two decades, Tony has cultivated something that is aesthetically top shelf while getting the optimum playing conditions at any point, in any environmental challenge, in any season.  Rockrimmon is kept as a perfect gem on a visually beautiful and diverse piece of property... with rolling/daling farmland on the upper part of the course (the edge portion of which Tim sees from Long Ridge Rd) transitioning dramatically down to the serene, pine forest flats of at the furthest point from the clubhouse, some 1200 - 1300 yards away from the first tee.


I also need to give Tony direct acknowledgement, because the deep info that Tim mentioned was either first related by him or prompted for me to discover by some trail he was interested in.


Last tidbit for now: Do you know the oft-told story of RTJ's Ace in 1954 at the renovated 4th at Baltusrol (thus proving the hole wasn't "too hard" as the members feared, before it opened for play)? In researching Frank Duane (RTJ's young lieutenant at the time), I came upon Duane's story of RTJ actually doing that some years before (presumably 1948-49) at Rockrimmon's 9th, in nearly the same exact circumstances (members worried about the difficulty) on a hole of the same nature (longish par 3 with water to carry on the front and left). If true, talk about walkin' the walk. LoL


cheers   vk



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

MCirba

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Re: Orrin Smith
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2017, 08:33:04 PM »
This thread exemplifies why GolfClubAtlas is still indispensible to lovers of golf courses lo these many years later.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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