[Jim_Kennedy]

Unk.

Lots of good discussion.  Do we dare flip the question to "What good architect has the highest strikeout rate?"

Unk. would also take that category. 

[Angela Moser]

I would ask the same question... define success! What about creativity and uniqueness of ideas? Is that a different category then? ...like best architect? ... most creative architect?


To me Mrs Hollins and Mrs Dye are successful architects. Eventhough Mrs Hollins didn't build 400 courses, she was the one reason why golfers are gasping on the 16th tee at Cypress. I'm sure Mrs Dye had a lot more often that much impact on the design of Mr Dye.

[Rees Milikin]

Raynor.  Most are still doing well financially and are still desirable courses to play/access.

[Kalen Braley]

Barney,


This is certainly one of your best questions you've posed...mostly because there is no way to answer it in any objective way/measure.


Kudos for that....


P.S.  As for me, I will likely forever remain a Dr. MacK fan.  I've always loved his work... even long before i knew of this place....and he still remains so after all these years on GCA.

[Mike_Young]

Was Henry Ford a more successful car manufacturer than Ferdinand Porsche?   I say Fazio is the most successful of all time...not that I consider his work my favorite but because he has a model that has worked for a lot of developments.  JMO

[John Kavanaugh]

Did Palmer make the most money with the least effort?  Did the business make or almost break Nicklaus?

[Ryan Coles]

Based solely on the courses I've played, Herbert Fowler is my fav. Harry Colt, probably the best. Old Tom Morris the luckiest. Nick Faldo the worst. James Braid the most prolific.


Of the ones I've not:


Tom Doak the most literate.


Ian Scott-Taylor the most inventive.

[Peter Pallotta]

Did Palmer make the most money with the least effort?  Did the business make or almost break Nicklaus?

All golf course architects who own more than one house are successful. Not every successful architect owns more than one house. If you're a golf course architect whose great grandchildren will be set for life, you're the most successful of all -- but likely only in your great grandchildren's eyes.

[John Kavanaugh]

Great grandchildren who need be be set, should be...in concrete.

[Nigel Islam]

Raynor.  Most are still doing well financially and are still desirable courses to play/access.

I will second that vote, because he's also my own personal favorite.

[John Kavanaugh]

Raynor. A few years ago I bought a couple of paintings by a famous blind artist. Now one of them hangs upside down where I take my morning shit. You got to play to be in the game.

[Jason Topp]

Jack Nicklaus - I am guessing he made the most money.

[Dan Herrmann]

Old Tom Morris:  Without him, there would likely be no golf course architecture.   Everything done today has roots in his work.

[archie_struthers]

 


Gotta be George Crump 🏄   


Surfed in built the best course (arguably   )ever!    Left us before he could make a mistake on second try .

[Mike Hendren]

All I know is that I would have retired years ago, joined numerous clubs and be the most popular poster on this site due to my largesse and hospitality if I had the money Nicklaus or Fazio made.   Heck, Huntley would have been calling ME to beg for access.

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,


Jack just happened to be our age in 1997. I do not believe he was in a position to retire at that point.

[Garland Bayley]

Was Henry Ford a more successful car manufacturer than Ferdinand Porsche?   I say Fazio is the most successful of all time...not that I consider his work my favorite but because he has a model that has worked for a lot of developments.  JMO

What exactly has he built that Joe Everyman can go play? I don't see anything in the PNW that meets that criteria.
It seems to me that Bill Diddel had "a model that has worked for a lot of developments".
Bill Diddel most successful golf architect of all time. Most likely leads the field in the number of time he shot his age.

[Andrew Carr]

+1    If we are looking for an unblemished record.


American Bias coming.  Now that we got that out of the way...


This is a great question: what defines successful in this industry.  I would say the architect that is the most successful is the one that pulls the industry forward and gets others to create great things.


To continue on the Ford vs. Porsche, both are successful, but who pulled the industry along more?  I would argue Ford's early processes forced the competition from Chevy which impacted more people than the race history of Porsche vs Audi on Le Mans.


So who is the GCA equivalent to Ford...how can we not point to C.B. Macdonald?  He defined the job.  All his courses that remain are all still revered and he pulled the industry along with the marks left by he proteges (Raynor & Banks.)


If that isn't how you think success should be defined, how should it be defined and who is the most successful then?


P.S. I am not equating NGLA to a Focus or any of the brands offerings except maybe the one off 1965 GT40 Roadster that just sold...so please don't mistake my comparison of the two men for a quality comparison of the products they produced.

Gotta be George Crump 🏄   


Surfed in built the best course (arguably   )ever!    Left us before he could make a mistake on second try .

[Tom_Doak]

So who is the GCA equivalent to Ford...how can we not point to C.B. Macdonald?  He defined the job.  All his courses that remain are all still revered and he pulled the industry along with the marks left by he proteges (Raynor & Banks.)

I have never been one to believe that architects should be ranked, because those outside the business have no basis for comparison.


However, I think your logic above is flawed.  C.B. Macdonald built twelve courses ... Donald Ross built 402.  And you're comparing Macdonald to Henry Ford?

[Tim Martin]

So who is the GCA equivalent to Ford...how can we not point to C.B. Macdonald?  He defined the job.  All his courses that remain are all still revered and he pulled the industry along with the marks left by he proteges (Raynor & Banks.)

I have never been one to believe that architects should be ranked, because those outside the business have no basis for comparison.


However, I think your logic above is flawed.  C.B. Macdonald built twelve courses ... Donald Ross built 402.  And you're comparing Macdonald to Henry Ford?

Tom-So you are saying that a fair judgement can only be rendered by a fellow architect? It would seem that the golfer or "user" as it were should have some say.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What about Eddie Hackett? Made golf accessible to many Irishmen, often with a minimal budget.

[Padraig Dooley]

What about Eddie Hackett? Made golf accessible to many Irishmen, often with a minimal budget.

Original architect at Waterville and Carne too!

[Tom_Doak]

I have never been one to believe that architects should be ranked, because those outside the business have no basis for comparison.

Tom-So you are saying that a fair judgement can only be rendered by a fellow architect? It would seem that the golfer or "user" as it were should have some say.

Tim: 


I've always maintained that golfers are free to judge the courses we build, and to compare them if they want.  But they are not really qualified to judge our "work", because they don't know what we started with, what the client wanted, what the rules were, who did what, and so on.  Even a lot of guys who consider themselves knowledgable about architecture don't really even have a clue what we really do out there.  Just ask someone who has visited one of my construction sites for a day ... most come away a bit shell-shocked.

[Andrew Carr]

In answering my definition of success on this topic, don't I have to rank the pole position? (to continue to beat a dead horse with car analogies...)


I'm certainly not comparing the volume of work produced by Macdonald to Ford, that would be very flawed logic, but more pointing to what Ford did for the car making industry and what Macdonald did for the business of Golf Architecture.  Isn't Macdonald the first attributed to the term "golf architect?"  Didn't he blaze a new trail in the way American golf courses were built from 1906 onward?  That is the comparison to Ford that I was trying to make, but I can see how I failed to restrict that comparison.


And yes, I do agree that despite what I thought I knew about golf architecture and the process, seeing the work in the dirt that Ian Andrew has done at Wheatley Hills Golf Club gave me a greater appreciation to the artistry and engineering that is required to successfully build/renovate a golf course.  Seeing Ian work and refine drawn lines made me appreciate the "hands on" guys more.  Our newly restored 12th really emphasizes that for me.  Ian had originally drawing the bunker with the standard issue GCA white spray paint can.  After the bunker was rough graded, Ian came back and drastically modified it to the benefit of the bunker and the hole.  If that were just done from a topography map as I understand much of Ross's 402 courses were built from, I doubt that field modification would have happened.  Maybe that's why I appreciate Macdonald and Mackenzie more than Ross, with the exception of the courses Ross was there throughout construction for.


So maybe in that respect the comparison of Ford does belong with Ross because he did mass produce golf courses, but so did Tillinghast, is that the Ford vs. Chevy battle?  Is Macdonald then Karl Benz?  I think that would be a bit blasphemous even coming from an American bias 


How would you define success?  And who is the best by that metric?

So who is the GCA equivalent to Ford...how can we not point to C.B. Macdonald?  He defined the job.  All his courses that remain are all still revered and he pulled the industry along with the marks left by he proteges (Raynor & Banks.)

I have never been one to believe that architects should be ranked, because those outside the business have no basis for comparison.


However, I think your logic above is flawed.  C.B. Macdonald built twelve courses ... Donald Ross built 402.  And you're comparing Macdonald to Henry Ford?

[George Pazin]

Just ask someone who has visited one of my construction sites for a day ... most come away a bit shell-shocked.

I'm not surprised. I'm always a bit shell shocked on here when someone post before, during and after pics. To say it's night and day would be an understatement. Even areas that look ideally suited (the dune-like area in the sand hills, some of the oceanside courses, etc) are a far cry from the finished product.


I'd say t shirt printing pales in comparison, but then again it pales in comparison to almost anything...

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