Secondary Backstops

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've noticed a unique feature on some Donald Ross and AW Tillinghast courses, especially on par 3's and an occassional par 5.

A secondary backstop, built about 3-8 yards behind the green and meant to catch and retain balls that fly the green.

This hump/mound is usually built at an angle that stops balls from running further away from the green.

Did other architects employ this feature, or is it unique to the above individuals ?

Have you seen this feature on holes other then a par 3 or par 5 ?

Is this feature employed by modern architects ?

[SteveTL]

Played Timuquana this week in Jacksonville and noticed this feature.  Have seen it in Bobby Weed's work in particular.  When mowed close, which these area's ususally are, many options for recovery exist...

Re: Bobby Weed's work - No. 11 and 18 at Timuquana (1923 restoration) and No. 3 Slammer & Squire World Golf Village (1998 modern) - par 4's all.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Perhaps I am mistaken, but in some cases, might these features be more related to surface drainage rather than playability issues?  I've seen numerous older courses that utilized creative surface drainage treatments including mounding and/or hollowing that could be mistaken for strategic features.  Newer courses seem to use some surface drainage but also higher costing subsurface drainage, especially where the architect gets a percentage of the construction budget.  

How much creativity do we see in modern architects regarding the use of surface drainage?  I saw a very early Flynn course (1916) redesigned fairly recently on very hilly terrain with plenty of natural run-offs that had artificial mounding put in that required a tremendous amount subsurface drainage on steep slopes!  Besides some horrendous design features, there was an inexcusable waste of money creating problems where none need exist.  At least to my less than expert eye.  Given that there were no need for these drains for 80 years leads me to believe that the work done did not use the land as well as could have been expected.

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

Are you sure that these areas were built for the purpose you stated?  Could they have been originally kickbacks actually on the greens surface?  I know that Gil Hanse recovered features like this at Tillinghast's Fenway.  On holes #4 and 8 especially, the new green area recoved used to be chipping area when I first played the course.  Now the newly recovered back area of the green plays great tricks with the ball and needs to be factored into shot selection with certain pin locations.  Similar recovery of lost green space on the sides of several holes (#'s 5 and 15 come immediately to mind) have equally dramatic effects on play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne & Geoff,

This feature is usually well below the level of the green,
and offset from the green itself.

In most cases the feature is invisible from the approach and from the front and middle of the green.  It only becomes visible as you go to the rear of the green, and look behind it.

SteveTL,

I played Timaquana about 5 times last September and didn't notice this feature behind the 11th and 18th green.

The feature that I'm referencing sits below and to the rear of the green.

[MikeMcCartin]

Pat,

My home course, Washington Golf & Country Club, was designed by Donald Ross and it contains the feature you write about.

Behind the par 4 8th green, there is a sharp slope running away to a creek about 25 yards behind the green.  About a third of the way down, there is a containment backstop built into the main slope.  It is obviously meant to prevent balls from bounding over the green and running into the creek.  

Personally, I am not a fan of this feature, as it built too sharply into the downslope, creating something that looks kind of like a grass bunker with a triangular bottom.  In addition, it drains poorly.  I'm not an expert, but it looks like it blocks the flow of water down the hill, causing water to pool at the angle between the backstop and the hill.

It's possible that this backstop was added because of the nature of the approach.  The green looks as if it was originally meant to (and still does) accept a running approach-the green is open at front and slopes away from the fairway.  Maybe Ross (or whoever added the backstop) felt that a ball running just over the green and into a creek would be too harsh of a penalty considering the inexact, sometimes unpredictable nature of a running approach.  Thus the secondary backstop.

Pat, thinking along those lines, are the holes that you reference ones that require running approaches (long par 3s, short par 5s?) with steep downslopes, or other hazards, behind the green?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,
Please check your email.  I have an interest in the architectural history at Washington Golf and CC and was wondering if you can clear up a few matters.  Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Wayne Morrison

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

Ken Stofer, a man as passionate about Tillinghast as any you'll find, once described what he called the "rear guard" on #7 at Lakewood Country Club. His "rear guard" actually featured bunkers not mounds, but Ken explained that they were constructed for the purpose you described - with big back lips what would almost certainly prevent a ball from running away. The hole is a short par 4 where most players will play a short pitch to the green, but if you get aggressive off the tee and screw up you could easily be left with a longer more difficult to control approach shot. The bunkers are well below the elevated green.

Ken's Dad, by the way, was part of the group that hired Tillinghast, so I think he knows a thing or two about what Tillinghast had in mind.

[david h. carroll]

Pat--I can't think of the feature you describe being anywhere at Five Farms...maybe behind 13 green, but those seem to be more like grass bunkers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike McCartin,

Two of the holes I was referencing, the 6th at Ridgewood West and the 6th at Mountain Ridge have steep slopes running away from elevated greens.

If those grassed features weren't there, a ball flying the green or even bounding over the green would end up 30 or more yards away, with a very difficult recovery shot being the result.

The 6th at Ridgewood is protected short of the green.
The 6th at Mountain Ridge is open immediately short of the green, but has deep bunkers 30-40 yards short of the elevated green.

[Jason Mandel]

played philly cricket today, and didn't notice them anywhere on the par 3's or 5's.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

Backstops.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

In the first post you said 'hump/mounds' and later it seems as if you're describing some kind of swale like affair with an upslope at the far side (upslope side of the swale).

If it's a backstop such as a berm behind the green the berm behind NGLA's #3 and particularly behind Merion's #16 (Quarry hole) green would certain both fit the description of a "backstop" behind those greens.

If, on the other hand, you're thinking of a swale with the upsloping far side of the swale acting as a backstop a perfect example of that would be the swale surrounding the high right side and back of GMGC's #5. At first I thought it may have once been a large bunker surrounding two sides of the green that'd been grassed over but a more logical reason for it was probably just to take sheet draining water from the natural grade higher hillside to the right or the green around the geen to the lower natural grade on the left. But the feature behind does have the effect of preventing balls from running away from the green behind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It sounds as though the feature behind the 5th at GMCC is exactly what I'm talking about.

It is not a berm similar to what is found on # 3 at NGLA or
# 16 at Merion.

When one considers that most of the clubs where I've seen this feature where built pre irrigation systems, these features make even more sense.

Like the arresting line on an aircraft carrier they stop over flown balls and slow down balls that have rolled over the green.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

If what you're describing are sort of swale like affairs behind greens (and around one side of greens) I bet you'll find them on green-ends where the natural grade around those greens slopes either right to left, left to right or perhaps from back to front. This kind of thing is probably simply form following function on these old style holes where sheet drainage was very well thought out! Not just that but obviously, as you say, it has a double function of slowing down over-hit balls!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The two greens I mentioned have steep slopes in the rear and to at least one side, sometimes more.  

These features are not drainage related, and serve as a safety net for long balls.

[Craig Disher]

dcarroll,
Think about the back of #10 and #16 greens at FF. Would you consider those to be grass bunkers (maybe sand bunkers that were grassed) or features like Pat is describing? They have the effect of preventing long shots from disappearing into almost unplayable areas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Speed Bumps?

I've seen them too, but only late at night on deserted roads in Arkansas or Idaho, and usually near trailer parks.  

Just teasing, Patrick...I know what you're talking about.  I always thought of them as spots where they pulled extra soil from green construction and created an early version of the dreaded containment mound.    

[david h. carroll]

Craig--I considered those along with 13 and 14 (to the right deep), but they seem to be cut out as grass bunkers...for this thread, we may also need to consider the back of #8 as well, but it seems to me that in other areas of the course where the area behind the green is either very steep or abuts woods/gunge, AWT put in sand bunkers (#4, 6, 18) so why not consider the fact that these may just be grass bunkers and retain missed or long shots just as a sand bunker does?

[Patrick_Mucci]

dcarroll,

what is the facing angle of the internal slope on those features as they emerge from the larger rear slope ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played Hollywood yesterday and noticed this feature on several holes, except the backstops weren't as big as the backstops at Ridgewood and Mountain Ridge.

I would imagine that these features could go unnoticed as few golfers tend to overclub a green.