Which architects built the toughest courses?

[Steve Lang]

   Where does Stanley Thompson fit in?  Banff and jasper from the tips are challenging to say the least!

[Matthew Rose]

Perhaps it's just the way his courses relate (or don't relate) to the way I play, but I've found Arthur Hills' courses to be the toughest of the more modern designs. In particular, the very awkward approaches into greens on the Hills courses I've played made them difficult. The course I remember particularly vividly in this regard was TPC at Eagle Trace in Florida, which also had water and a narrowness that made it pretty unplayable in wind. The public Legacy Ridge GC here north of Denver is another Hills course I don't rush out to play. Again the word "awkward" describes several of the holes there, and that equates to difficulty for me.

Arthur Hills gets my vote too. Legacy Ridge is hard and occasionally stupid, but I think the hardest course of his that I've played is the one at Hilton Head. That just ate our group alive. The mowing lines on his courses all seem to be very arbitrary and purposely weird.

[Don Jordan]

Have to ponder other periods but wasn't James Braid criticised for the greater severity when he re-vamped the likes of Carnoustie and Royal Aberdeen in the 1920's?
And wasn't Herbert Fowler famous/infamous for the length and difficult of many of his courses?
atb

I found the Braid courses the most difficult on a recent trip - Royal Aberdeen seem to take pride in being particularly nasty

[Jon Cavalier]

Thanks for the feedback all,

Given i'm somewhere between medium and short off the tee and in the range of most golfers at 15-20 cap....there are thousands of courses that would be difficult for me (and the average golfer for that matter) from the tips.


 I was trying to compare apples to apples and give examples of courses that are brutal even from the normal "white" tees.

Even from the white tees at, say, 6000 to 6300 yards, Tobacco Road, Tot Hill, Stonehouse, Royal New Kent, Caledonja and even Bulls Bay can be quite tough for the average golfer, mostly because there's really nowhere good to miss. I recall Stonehouse (which is the only one of Strantz's courses I didn't like) being brutally tough in this respect, as even slight misses would often end up lost in the woods or down in some crazy bunker.

[Steve Lang]

   One's going to lose more balls at Tot Hill than Tobacco Road... should that be a course metric for the avg player?  So I'd give TH's a 5 ball vs 2-3 for TR.


Just wondering

[Sven Nilsen]

The answer for the Pre-Golden Age is Bendelow.  He was a proponent of longer courses in response to the development of the rubber-cored ball.  In 1907 he noted that the average course could use an additional 600 yards. 


The leap from 5,800 to 6,400 doesn't seem like much today, but back then it was monstrous.

[James Brown]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group.

I started playing corporate outings in 1988, a burden lifted now, and recall Nicklaus courses being quiet forgiving on the resort side. Since this is, and has always been intended to be, an insult your least favorite architect thread...How bout an example of one Nicklaus course from that period tougher than any Pete Dye.

[James Brown]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group.

I started playing corporate outings in 1988, a burden lifted now, and recall Nicklaus courses being quiet forgiving on the resort side. Since this is, and has always been intended to be, an insult your least favorite architect thread...How bout an example of one Nicklaus course from that period tougher than any Pete Dye.

Grand Cypress North/South.  Harsh, long, and micro greens. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Many of us may have been unconsciously influenced by Tom D's loyal support for Mr Dye and his work -- and by his consistent praise and obvious affection.
It's a charming trait of Tom's, even though I'd be the last person to judge whether the praise for the work is really always warranted.
But it's fun to think of what other reputations Tom could similarly bolster if he felt inclined. Greg Norman is one - I played only one of his courses and it was indeed a tough one.
With a little effort on Tom's part and the willing cooperation of a golfing media always ready to jump on the bandwagon, I bet we could resurrect "America's 100 Toughest Tests" and make it the new gold standard in no time!

[Matt_Cohn]

Greg Norman has to be in the conversation for building the toughest courses among modern designers.

That's what I was thinking. If the question is about building consistently tough courses...

[Charles Lund]

I found A Difficult Par, the biography of Robert Trent Jones, Sr. to be well written and seemed to cover aspects of his career and motivation to build noteworthy and difficult courses.

I enjoyed it because I have played about 15 different courses he designed including a few in a few different countries outside the U.S.  It covered his academic training in which he pursued an education related to designing golf courses during a period of economic hardship and the beginnings of his career at a time when not much was happening.  It dealt with his collaboration with Stanley Thompson and their relationship.

I thought the author did a good job covering issues of complicated relationships among the family of architects.

Charles Lund

[John Kavanaugh]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group.

I started playing corporate outings in 1988, a burden lifted now, and recall Nicklaus courses being quiet forgiving on the resort side. Since this is, and has always been intended to be, an insult your least favorite architect thread...How bout an example of one Nicklaus course from that period tougher than any Pete Dye.

Grand Cypress North/South.  Harsh, long, and micro greens.

Thanks but I don't see it in the rating and slope. http://www.grandcypress.com/i/downloads/Scorecard_NSE.pdf Of course pales in comparison to a course from the same period by Dye. Poster child Kiawah Island Ocean. RIP Michael Vegis...KIO will never be the same.

[James Brown]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group.

I started playing corporate outings in 1988, a burden lifted now, and recall Nicklaus courses being quiet forgiving on the resort side. Since this is, and has always been intended to be, an insult your least favorite architect thread...How bout an example of one Nicklaus course from that period tougher than any Pete Dye.

Grand Cypress North/South.  Harsh, long, and micro greens.

Thanks but I don't see it in the rating and slope. http://www.grandcypress.com/i/downloads/Scorecard_NSE.pdf Of course pales in comparison to a course from the same period by Dye. Poster child Kiawah Island Ocean. RIP Michael Vegis...KIO will never be the same.

Probably not, but Nicklaus in that period was designing for the long straight hitter at the expense of everyone else.  For the average golfer, that course is pure misery.  Even on a bad day, the Ocean Course is a pleasure to play. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Dye is the only architect who gets props for hard. Here is a course that my parents were a member of that had no reason to be so brutal. They did have one hell of a bridge club than brought my mom much happiness. https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/orchidislandgbeachc/detailedscorecard.htm

[John Kavanaugh]

In defense of Dye I've never seen handicaps that don't travel like a member of a Dye course. I think his reputation influences the course raters. They just aren't quite as hard as they look once you take a deep breath and forget where you are.

[Joe Bausch]

Not even sure who to put in the Post 2000 era.

If Bob Gwynne and John Raese design another course, will they be the leaders in the clubhouse?!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jack Nicklaus courses from the 1980-1988 are the toughest as a group.

I started playing corporate outings in 1988, a burden lifted now, and recall Nicklaus courses being quiet forgiving on the resort side. Since this is, and has always been intended to be, an insult your least favorite architect thread...How bout an example of one Nicklaus course from that period tougher than any Pete Dye.

Not true at all John.  Don't put words in my mouth...or typewriter.  It's certainly a legit question, especially for other eras we didn't experience first hand.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please, the mantra of this site is blame everyone but themselves if they are left without a clear recovery or a lost ball. Hard is bad, options are good.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am often counter-mantra........

[John Kavanaugh]

You put the Oak in Doak

[David Davis]

I've only seen one Von Hagge course which was Les Bordes in France. I would say it's fair to characterize that one as extremely hard. Anyone who breaks 80 from the back tees get their name up on a board in the club house. No small feat. If that course is any indication for some of his harder designs then yes he fits the bill perfectly.


I would agree that the modernized versions of Donald Ross courses are also extremely hard. Especially when championship ready.


Harry Colt would have to fit as well, especially if you look at Royal Portrush and Pine Valley.


Greg Norman courses that I have seen are very tough, Brookwater near Brisbane I remember as extremely tough. Ellerston which actually was designed by Bob Harrison but under the Norman name is one of the toughest courses I've ever seen and designed to be that way.


Nicklaus indeed has some tough ones, many tough ones in fact. Kinloch near Taupo in New Zealand is one such courses that is fairly recent but a tough one for sure.

[Kalen Braley]

Two of Nicklaus' more recent courses that are beasties are the redesign at Idaho Club, hands down the toughest course I've ever played...and Painted Valley near Park City.  7100 yards from the whites, which even at elevation is tough.


P.S.  And while I haven't played it yet, I've heard Red Ledges is a tough bugger as well.

[Derek_Duncan]

Perhaps it's just the way his courses relate (or don't relate) to the way I play, but I've found Arthur Hills' courses to be the toughest of the more modern designs. In particular, the very awkward approaches into greens on the Hills courses I've played made them difficult. The course I remember particularly vividly in this regard was TPC at Eagle Trace in Florida, which also had water and a narrowness that made it pretty unplayable in wind. The public Legacy Ridge GC here north of Denver is another Hills course I don't rush out to play. Again the word "awkward" describes several of the holes there, and that equates to difficulty for me.

Are we really talking about penal design in this thread?

Doug,


I agree with you about Art Hills. I'm sure he's had plenty of pushovers, but his output in the Southeast is, generally, severe and awkward. Especially the stuff from the late '80's through the mid- to late-'90's. A lot of narrow fairways, water, small greens and strange angles.


And Legacy Ridge near Denver is simply terrible. 6 and 13 are two of the most troubled holes I've ever seen.

[Jason Topp]

Modern:

Nicklaus in his mean era built courses that demanded shots that I cannot hit from tees appropriate to my game in normal weather- usually healthy iron shots to raised greens that require high left to right shots hit a precise distance. 


I cannot recall a Dye Course or a Hills course that presented me with shots for which I had almost no chance. 


Classic -


Is Flynn a candidate?  I have never played his courses but the pictures always make them look very difficult.