Distance and age

[James Brown]

I know we have beat this topic to death, but I find this article fascinating.


I certainly hit it further today at 42 than I did at 22.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/you-wont-believe-how-much-farther-pga-tour-champions-players-are-hitting-the-ball-now-than-in-their-primes

[Steve Lang]

    James,
You're still a young pup... wait another 20-25 years!  Stay flexible, but look at Bernhard's muscles!

The material science tech march (but probably not marketing propaganda) should be pretty much over the top and on a plateau, so until some better conditioning regime or super-flex-strength-hormone-stemcell-gene therapy pills or hypnotic mental inputs get abused by golfers.. I expect things to calm down.  But who am I to say?
...

[jeffwarne]

I expect things to calm down.  But who am I to say?
...

Pretty sure that's what the USGA said in 1900.
and again repeatedly in the mid 1990's.


Sadly, the sand digging technology has improved as well to make it easier to bury their heads in it.
Or as I said last night on the air, clearly it's improved flexibility that allows the governing bodies to stick their heads further up their.....


8 minute abs?
Why not 8 sets of tees.. or even better 10!
screw sustainability

[Jason Topp]

It would be interesting to see a comparison of carry distances.   They usually play the MN event on very firm fairways.  I do not know whether or not that is generally the case.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Those distance gains haven't carried over to this 62 year old amateur.......


I do recall following Jack Nicklaus when he played with that Golf Digest Contest Winner.  He went on and on about how he hits a 4 iron further now (this was 2004) than in his prime, but even some of his people whispered that he liked to ignore the extra inch of shaft length and fewer degrees of loft that essentially made it a 2 iron.


This study is a bit different in that it compares actual driving distance from then and now, not comparative clubs.  I know a few years ago I played La Costa with Steve Pate, and he was still only driving it 270-275.  Granted, sea level and cloudy, but I don't think he picked up much distance.


It's also interesting that he picked 1990 to compare, which is just a few years before the intro of the Pro V 1, which is where the biggest jump comes from.  John Daly was the first pro to average over 300 yards - and that was 1997.


Some other differences could be the harder fairways, as noted, easier course set up that encourages swinging for the fences, and my favorite, extreme club fitting which can really increase distance, especially roll.  That seems to be where most of the gains come from now days.

[Buck Wolter]

and my favorite, extreme club fitting which can really increase distance, especially roll.  That seems to be where most of the gains come from now days.

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

[BHoover]

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

Interesting topic, Buck. I hadn't thought of this before reading your post. But it's definitely interesting and seems like it could be a simple solution. But then when I see someone like Jason Day hit a 2 iron almost 300 yards, it makes me wonder. But, still an interesting discussion.

[jeffwarne]

Those distance gains haven't carried over to this 62 year old amateur.......


I do recall following Jack Nicklaus when he played with that Golf Digest Contest Winner.  He went on and on about how he hits a 4 iron further now (this was 2004) than in his prime, but even some of his people whispered that he liked to ignore the extra inch of shaft length and fewer degrees of loft that essentially made it a 2 iron.


This study is a bit different in that it compares actual driving distance from then and now, not comparative clubs.  I know a few years ago I played La Costa with Steve Pate, and he was still only driving it 270-275.  Granted, sea level and cloudy, but I don't think he picked up much distance.


It's also interesting that he picked 1990 to compare, which is just a few years before the intro of the Pro V 1, which is where the biggest jump comes from.  John Daly was the first pro to average over 300 yards - and that was 1997.


Some other differences could be the harder fairways, as noted, easier course set up that encourages swinging for the fences, and my favorite, extreme club fitting which can really increase distance, especially roll.  That seems to be where most of the gains come from now days.

and that(constant justification and different "interpretation" of data) is why no one has noticed...until recently...the massive gains.
But then more distance gains equals more work for architects and builders.


Jack Nicklaus hitting ANY souped up 4 iron at age 64 farther than his 4 iron in his prime of the 60's when he was a distance monster should be enough but justify away.


Steve Pate-driving it 270-275 at la Costa-as a senior-is actually quite significant.
years ago on tour they used to drive it 235-250 there as the air, sea level and soft conditions really hurt tour averages-and the averages never really got normal until they left the west coast and got better weather and firmer ground.


1990 is not really near 2001, when the ProV1 actually came out-though distance gains were made with the Titleist Professional as well.


While you are correct about clubs being optimized for more roll now, carry distance is insane for TOUR players.
Rory was carrying the ball 365 on the range at the PGA and they all carry it 280 or more.
years ago 240 was a long hazard to carry and 260 carry was reserved for Nicklaus and a few select bombers.


Averages aren't really the best way to measure gains anyway as course lengthening and safe landing zones have not kept up with distance gains so many tee shots are not drivers.


I close with Freddy couples at 57 or whatever, averaging 300 vs. 272 at age 30.
Fitness gains? seriously

[BCrosby]

Jeff -


PII is an interesting case study on length. I don't have the USGA's stat sheet at hand, but the differences between driving distances in the 1997 USO at PII (pre-Pro V1) and the driving distances in the 2005 USO (post-Pro V1) were about 20 yards for the field and about 30 yards for the top 10 in distance.


There were some weather differences. The USO in '97 was a bit cooler. But even taking that into account the numbers jump off the page.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm 57 and when I was 16 I could drive 4 greens at my home course that I can no longer reach. Fitness matters.

[Thomas Dai]

The pro's we see on TV may be different, but I remain unconvinced in relation to amateur hcppers, especially once they reach senior age golf.
atb

[Peter Pallotta]

As an average golfer, I've found that hitting it in the centre of the clubface certainly helps.
So does decent technique and good tempo/rhythm and coming at the ball from the inside.
And the golf ball too, ie almost *all* modern golf balls, from the simplest like the two piece Noodle or Wilson 50 to the high-end 5 piece balls, seem better to me than *any* golf ball I used the few times I played as a teenager, and even 25 years ago.

When I first took up the game seriously some 20 years ago, my first good driver was a TM 580 XD, with a regular-flex 45 inch graphite shaft. Today I'm using a Titleist Oil-Hardened persimmon driver with a DG S300 shaft that's 43.5 inches.
I've not seen any loss in distance; I may have even gained some.
I'm better, and the golf ball is better.
Peter


Saw a fairly recent clip of Lee Trevino. I remember him as a short hitter with a motley/mixed set of irons and woods. This time, he had a driver with a head bigger than his own (human) head, and when he steeped off to the side after his tee shot and was just standing there, the driver seemed taller than he was. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

Almost no one on tour hits up like that. Tour average is actually slightly down. Zach Johnson is +4 or +5, but he's an exception (and not a long hitter). Most are -2 to +2.

[Buck Wolter]

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

Almost no one on tour hits up like that. Tour average is actually slightly down. Zach Johnson is +4 or +5, but he's an exception (and not a long hitter). Most are -2 to +2.

Kevin-
6 may be extreme but Rory recently responded to Chamblee on twitter with a trackman photo and he was +3.1, Justin Thomas posted a +5.1 deg and less than 2000 rpms with 120mph club head speed earlier this summer. Anybody hitting down is giving up lots of yards, why not make it harder to hit up?

Buck

[John Kavanaugh]

Buck,


A 2" tee would cause maintenance issues for clubs without tight tees. It's not uncommon to need 2 inches just to get above the grass on some less fortunate courses. Or zoysia tees for that matter.

[Buck Wolter]

Buck,


A 2" tee would cause maintenance issues for clubs without tight tees. It's not uncommon to need 2 inches just to get above the grass on some less fortunate courses. Or zoysia tees for that matter.

I miss zoysia --you don't even need a tee.

That's why I like the Masters Tee -- it could be a local rule, no USGA needed. Senior/Women  get an extra inch.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't want a crutch to beat these silly young bastards that hit it 50 yds past me but don't have a clue about trajectory or spin control.

[jeffwarne]

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

Interesting topic, Buck. I hadn't thought of this before reading your post. But it's definitely interesting and seems like it could be a simple solution. But then when I see someone like Jason Day hit a 2 iron almost 300 yards, it makes me wonder. But, still an interesting discussion.

The two inch tee is going to solve 300 yard 3 woods?
200 yard 8 irons?
Besides, the tee would be innovated with a non penetrating base so 2 full inches were above the ground and/or the manufacturers would find a way to build drivers optimizing the 2 inch tee.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,


Who do you think is most likely to win a match at a properly designed course. A 300 yd driving 25yr old or a 250 yd driving 50 yr old? Given they are both 6 handicaps.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,


Who do you think is most likely to win a match at a properly designed course. A 300 yd driving 25yr old or a 250 yd driving 50 yr old? Given they are both 6 handicaps.

I give, but I can hardly wait for the punchline

[John Kavanaugh]

There is no punchline. The young golfers who I play with that hit the ball 300 yds have learned to rest on that crutch and don't know any other shots. They can not control their trajectory or hit both fades and draws. The only issue is finding a course that requires you to hit the ball high, low and left or right. These kids that have grown up on length are the best worst golfers in the history of the game. I'd hate to see that fixed and have them learn the game.

[James Brown]

I don't think this is cherry picking the data or in any way flukes.  Allen Barber, who won the VA Senior Am this year, once told me he hits it 30 yards further today than when he was 25.  I'm sure Sean Knapp would say the same.  Not question about this. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think this is cherry picking the data or in any way flukes.  Allen Barber, who won the VA Senior Am this year, once told me he hits it 30 yards further today than when he was 25.  I'm sure Sean Knapp would say the same.  Not question about this.

Allen Barber is 59 years old and spent the years since he turned 50 playing very serious amateur events. Now he wants to compare how he hits the ball when he was 25 in 1983 and starting a career and family. It's a bogus comparison.


Considering his first taste of success as a senior was a mediocre showing in 2007 and did nothing until he was medalist in a US Senior Open Qualifier in 2012 seems to indicate that he is now a focused serious golfer. Hard work and dedication to fitness produces length..That is what he is an example of for us to emulate. Not to head to Dicks for a fitting.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I know its been discussed before but couldn't they go to a 2" max tee length and immediately impact the high launch low spin? if these guys could no longer hit up at 6 deg they would produce backspin and limit at least the roll. The tee lobby can't be as powerful as the ball lobby.  Fred Ridley could implement the 'Masters Tee'.

Almost no one on tour hits up like that. Tour average is actually slightly down. Zach Johnson is +4 or +5, but he's an exception (and not a long hitter). Most are -2 to +2.

Kevin-
6 may be extreme but Rory recently responded to Chamblee on twitter with a trackman photo and he was +3.1, Justin Thomas posted a +5.1 deg and less than 2000 rpms with 120mph club head speed earlier this summer. Anybody hitting down is giving up lots of yards, why not make it harder to hit up?

Buck

The PGA Tour average attack angle is -1 degree, so I don't see any benefit to your tee height idea.

[jeffwarne]

There is no punchline. The young golfers who I play with that hit the ball 300 yds have learned to rest on that crutch and don't know any other shots. They can not control their trajectory or hit both fades and draws. The only issue is finding a course that requires you to hit the ball high, low and left or right. These kids that have grown up on length are the best worst golfers in the history of the game. I'd hate to see that fixed and have them learn the game.

So they're both "six" handicaps and you can pick a winner?