Four grasses, one course

[Tommy Williamsen]

I had the privilege to play the Highlands Course at Atlanta Athletic Club this past week. It is an exceptional course. My host pointed out the grasses. Zoysia in the fairways, differing strains of Bermuda in the rough and on the greens and another grass just short of the greens. Zoysia does not allow the ball to run much because it is so dense that it grabs the ball. They planted a grass that is always firm so players can run the ball onto the green. I wish I could remember the kind of grass it was, but it seems like a brilliant plan that allows the course to play fast and firm in and around the greens.

[Steve Lang]

   Seem to remember Bayonet at Puppy Creek, near Raeford, NC with multi-grass setup... long time ago

[Anthony_Nysse]

I had the privilege to play the Highlands Course at Atlanta Athletic Club this past week. It is an exceptional course. My host pointed out the grasses. Zoysia in the fairways, differing strains of Bermuda in the rough and on the greens and another grass just short of the greens. Zoysia does not allow the ball to run much because it is so dense that it grabs the ball. They planted a grass that is always firm so players can run the ball onto the green. I wish I could remember the kind of grass it was, but it seems like a brilliant plan that allows the course to play fast and firm in and around the greens.

Tifgrand? Tiftuff?


We have Latitude 36, Tifeagle, Platinum paspalum, St Augustine and a little bahaia. Our front entrance is geo zoysia.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I had the privilege to play the Highlands Course at Atlanta Athletic Club this past week. It is an exceptional course. My host pointed out the grasses. Zoysia in the fairways, differing strains of Bermuda in the rough and on the greens and another grass just short of the greens. Zoysia does not allow the ball to run much because it is so dense that it grabs the ball. They planted a grass that is always firm so players can run the ball onto the green. I wish I could remember the kind of grass it was, but it seems like a brilliant plan that allows the course to play fast and firm in and around the greens.

Tifgrand? Tiftuff?


We have Latitude 36, Tifeagle, Platinum paspalum, St Augustine and a little bahaia. Our front entrance is geo zoysia.

I think that TifgrNd might be it. It was pretty green.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Dark green. Very tight. Quail Hollow also has it for their approaches and collars. Tees, too.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tommy
Are you paying for this brilliant plan?
How much did the irrigation cost for this grassing scheme?


Peter Pallotta - 8/28/17 ...
My opinion: too much time, too much money, too much ego, too many cooks, too many demands, too much complaining, and not nearly enough golfers who actually (despite their professed love for the spirit of the game) want to play the course as it lies

[Mike_Young]

I had the privilege to play the Highlands Course at Atlanta Athletic Club this past week. It is an exceptional course.

What was exceptional there?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tommy
Are you paying for this brilliant plan?
How much did the irrigation cost for this grassing scheme?


Peter Pallotta - 8/28/17 ...
My opinion: too much time, too much money, too much ego, too many cooks, too many demands, too much complaining, and not nearly enough golfers who actually (despite their professed love for the spirit of the game) want to play the course as it lies

I wouldn't say AAC has a shortage of golfers. They also want to stay in the conversation for hosting major events. Huge, successful facility.

[Greg Chambers]

Tommy
Are you paying for this brilliant plan?
How much did the irrigation cost for this grassing scheme?


Peter Pallotta - 8/28/17 ...
My opinion: too much time, too much money, too much ego, too many cooks, too many demands, too much complaining, and not nearly enough golfers who actually (despite their professed love for the spirit of the game) want to play the course as it lies

I wouldn't say AAC has a shortage of golfers. They also want to stay in the conversation for hosting major events. Huge, successful facility.

For 99.9% of golf courses, it's not a sustainable model.  I think that might be what Mike was getting at.  It's really not realistic for most golf courses to proceed down a path like that, believe it or not.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tommy
Are you paying for this brilliant plan?
How much did the irrigation cost for this grassing scheme?


Peter Pallotta - 8/28/17 ...
My opinion: too much time, too much money, too much ego, too many cooks, too many demands, too much complaining, and not nearly enough golfers who actually (despite their professed love for the spirit of the game) want to play the course as it lies

I wouldn't say AAC has a shortage of golfers. They also want to stay in the conversation for hosting major events. Huge, successful facility.

For 99.9% of golf courses, it's not a sustainable model.  I think that might be what Mike was getting at.  It's really not realistic for most golf courses to proceed down a path like that, believe it or not.

Greg,
  Its much more common than you think. In fact, AAC isn't even close to being the first courses in their own area to do so. Peachtree did this 10+ years ago. (bent greens, 419 roughs, 1 cultivar of zoysia in fwys and another for tee tops. All sodded, too.) Once you break south enough to utilize cool season, and warm season grasses, this isn't surprising at all. The grasses that have been developed over the last 10 years are incredible, compared to years past were the options were 419 and tidwarf. (even 328) Courses in the Hilton Head area have 419 roughs, paspalum fairways, mini verde greens, tifgrand approaches/collars and tee tops.
  Its very common in my area to have celebration fairways, paspalum or tifgrand tees, tifgrand collars and an ultradwarf on greens. The courses in the Tennessee/north Georgia, Carolinas, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas that can utilize both cool and warm season grasses, do. They allow the courses to play better year round and the turf textures are much more like cool season.
turf. 
  Even many northern courses see 4 different grasses-older bent on fwys, newer bents on greens, bluegrass roughs and lots of fescue.
  When Old Marsh was built 30 years ago, Pete used 5 different grasses in the planting here. (Dwarf, 419, St Augustine, centipede and Bahaia.  He did similar at Long Cove. This isn't really anything new.

[Tom_Doak]

  When Old Marsh was built 30 years ago, Pete used 5 different grasses in the planting here. (Dwarf, 419, St Augustine, centipede and Bahaia.  He did similar at Long Cove. This isn't really anything new.

Mr. Dye is a huge believer in using a variety of grasses on the course, but his interest is more in creating visual texture and color changes, and REDUCING maintenance costs, rather than cranking up the maintenance intensity of all surfaces.  Sometimes he went too far ... when they ran out of Bahia sod at Austin C.C. near the end, he wound up with St. Augustine grass on bunker faces for the 9th hole, right next to bent grass on the green!


There is nothing inherently unsustainable about using different species of grasses for different functions, but it depends on what your goals are.


The clubs you highlighted are all very wealthy clubs who have no problem with a grassing scheme that commits them to intensive maintenance.  It's one thing to commit to it on greens, but some of the grasses used on approaches will get way too thatchy unless they are aerified and top dressed and verticut on an aggressive schedule, and not every club has the means to follow through with that.  I used Tifdwarf on approaches at The Legends thinking it would help make them tighter and encourage run-up shots, but in practice they just became thatchy and slow.

[BCowan]

Tom,


   You make some good points and bunker maint and walk cutting tees and approaches has been overdone imo. 


    Green approaches are of most importance, especially down south and they serve as function not form like the above paragraph.  The difference I'd bet you would find is middle upper tier publics the keeper is out assisting with verticutting and so on, while top tier clubs the keeper observes the work.   


    Also this constant going after maint budgets and associating it with unsustainable gets old,  when turning a blind eye to clubhouse expenses which dwarfs the core asset which is the golf course.  A top tier Detroit clubs maint budget is 20% of their annual club budget. 




   

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,


    Green approaches are of most importance, especially down south and they serve as function not form like the above paragraph.  The difference I'd bet you would find is middle upper tier publics the keeper is out assisting with verticutting and so on, while top tier clubs the keeper observes the work.   


 

Ben,
  I always enjoy reading your assumptions.


  Generally speaking, there are many middle of the road courses in warm season climates that utilizes multiple grasses, also. Now, the level that they are maintained, varies but all have multiple different grass types.

[BCowan]

Tom,


    Green approaches are of most importance, especially down south and they serve as function not form like the above paragraph.  The difference I'd bet you would find is middle upper tier publics the keeper is out assisting with verticutting and so on, while top tier clubs the keeper observes the work.   


 

Ben,
  I always enjoy reading your assumptions.


  Generally speaking, there are many middle of the road courses in warm season climates that utilizes multiple grasses, also. Now, the level that they are maintained, varies but all have multiple different grass types.

You are welcome, I love reading them as well.  It's too bad we don't have more public golf course keepers on here. 

[JMEvensky]

In Memphis it's not uncommon to see courses with 4 grasses--Champion bermuda greens, TifSport approaches,zoysia fairways,and 419 rough.

[A.G._Crockett]

I had the privilege to play the Highlands Course at Atlanta Athletic Club this past week. It is an exceptional course.

What was exceptional there?

Par 3's with 200 yd carries over water, and bunkers from which one often cannot see the top of the flag.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,


    Green approaches are of most importance, especially down south and they serve as function not form like the above paragraph.  The difference I'd bet you would find is middle upper tier publics the keeper is out assisting with verticutting and so on, while top tier clubs the keeper observes the work.   


 

Ben,
  I always enjoy reading your assumptions.


  Generally speaking, there are many middle of the road courses in warm season climates that utilizes multiple grasses, also. Now, the level that they are maintained, varies but all have multiple different grass types.

You are welcome, I love reading them as well.  It's too bad we don't have more public golf course keepers on here.

You don't have to be a public greenkeepr to verticut, mow, handwater spot spray, topdress, etc....

[BCowan]

Tom,


    Green approaches are of most importance, especially down south and they serve as function not form like the above paragraph.  The difference I'd bet you would find is middle upper tier publics the keeper is out assisting with verticutting and so on, while top tier clubs the keeper observes the work.   


 

Ben,
  I always enjoy reading your assumptions.


  Generally speaking, there are many middle of the road courses in warm season climates that utilizes multiple grasses, also. Now, the level that they are maintained, varies but all have multiple different grass types.

You are welcome, I love reading them as well.  It's too bad we don't have more public golf course keepers on here.

You don't have to be a public greenkeepr to verticut, mow, handwater spot spray, topdress, etc....

Never said you had to be, it's just that Public Golf Keepers are typically more frugal with their budgets and I find they do more in the field work due to necessity IMO.  It's funny how you are going after me, when I'm trying to address the folks that are attacking the Golf Maint industry as making the game too expensive. 

[Don Mahaffey]

I'll bet Wolf Point plays firmer and faster than most of the courses with 4 or 5 strains of grass.  We have two types of bermuda, one for the greens and one for everywhere else.  But we have one maintenance plan, not 5, and we want it ALL playing the same, not just where the architect or supt thinks someone might want to bounce the ball.


I know someone will fire back and tell me how it wouldn't work anywhere else.....or they'll keep it real somehow....doing more work and spending more $$$ doesn't mean its always better.

[Mike_Trenham]

Seems like clubs like to tinker with their grasses only second to their bunkers.  I don't think classic courses look right when each height of cut is its own pure strain, but that is what golfers and 'keepers' seem to value and desire.

[Tom_Doak]

Seems like clubs like to tinker with their grasses only second to their bunkers.  I don't think classic courses look right when each height of cut is its own pure strain, but that is what golfers and 'keepers' seem to value and desire.

Is it really what golfers desire?  Or does the golf industry just keep telling them to desire it?  Honestly, most golfers would not know the difference, all they know is whether it's "pure" and they are unreasonably demanding about that part.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Seems like clubs like to tinker with their grasses only second to their bunkers.  I don't think classic courses look right when each height of cut is its own pure strain, but that is what golfers and 'keepers' seem to value and desire.

Is it really what golfers desire?  Or does the golf industry just keep telling them to desire it?  Honestly, most golfers would not know the difference, all they know is whether it's "pure" and they are unreasonably demanding about that part.

I think grass selection and changing surfaces is also about a marketing advantage and being the first or doing something different.

[Jon Wiggett]

Seems like clubs like to tinker with their grasses only second to their bunkers.  I don't think classic courses look right when each height of cut is its own pure strain, but that is what golfers and 'keepers' seem to value and desire.

Is it really what golfers desire?  Or does the golf industry just keep telling them to desire it?  Honestly, most golfers would not know the difference, all they know is whether it's "pure" and they are unreasonably demanding about that part.

Absolutely agree with your questions. IMO it is the industry telling the golfer whet the golfer wants. The only people to profit are the companies themselves and it is the golfer that pays for it. Shame the governing bodies are not interested in even trying to bring some sanity and sustainability back into the game.


Jon

[Anthony_Nysse]

Seems like clubs like to tinker with their grasses only second to their bunkers.  I don't think classic courses look right when each height of cut is its own pure strain, but that is what golfers and 'keepers' seem to value and desire.

Is it really what golfers desire?  Or does the golf industry just keep telling them to desire it?  Honestly, most golfers would not know the difference, all they know is whether it's "pure" and they are unreasonably demanding about that part.

Absolutely agree with your questions. IMO it is the industry telling the golfer whet the golfer wants. The only people to profit are the companies themselves and it is the golfer that pays for it. Shame the governing bodies are not interested in even trying to bring some sanity and sustainability back into the game.


Jon

If the grasses are really better, is the industry really telling the golfer? There are so many more options, cool season and warm season, that were not available 10-15 years ago. There are choices now other than 419 or penncross.

[Randy Thompson]

As Don always says, its less about the grass and more about the maintenance! I am consulting in one course that has 20 year old penncross and they spend a fraction of what it takes to maintain the newer more aggressive bents! I am also consulting with another club that has 100% poa and there perfect year around and no seed heads! There maintenace program is similar to what Anthony was doing at pine tree with tiff egale!
Tom i believe when Austin c c opened they had 12 different grasses!