[BCowan]

Well after a wonderful trip this summer to Marquette, Craig Moore (Keeper), Kenny Fry, DeVries and I talked briefly about the possibility of turning #4 into a Par 5 to alleviate the disjointedness of 4 green to 5 tee.  You walk back up a hill to the 5th tee and then back down past the 4th green.  The 2 hurdles are there is a gas line that runs through the proposed change on 4.  Though there is also a creek that is close enough to the line that makes for a 20-25 yard carry, with land in between for weaker players to dink it.  The biggest hurdle is the DEQ and the active brook trout population living in the stream. They feel with removal of trees the water temperature will rise causing harm to the native fish.  Now we had October weather there in early August 1 or 2 of the days  .  DeVries has won over some of the hearts of the local Environmental reps.  So lets talk now about the functionality of the hole assuming they got approval do this at a later time and wanted to.  Craig has the chainsaws fueled and ready to go for the alternative 2nd green site  .  What the new hole would do is give the course an uphill hole, the 3rd shot would be uphill for the par 5 (course lacks uphill holes) and a very reachable par 5 by today's standards, half par for longer hitters.  Also bringing what looks like a beautiful stream into play, making for a great decision on the 2nd shot for the average player.  You can see the line of trees cut out in a straight line, the gas line has to be visible for aircraft in case of emergency.  Love to hear from folks who have played it, ones who want to, Mike, Kenny, and Craig too....
 



#4 tee




looking back towards current tee


current green


little drainage ditch, could be modified



From 5 tee looking at proposed green site


closer look

[Steve Lang]

   I kinda like it, about 490 yds, plays like 500+


... but can see the heroic hooking approach whacking someone waiting on 4th tee..


Not sure about the lack of uphill holes there is really true or an issue... plenty of places where you need to lift the ball


it'd be easy to document the ambient stream temperature and challenge the DEQ's fauna and flora opinion...

[BCowan]

Steve,

   Nice post.  The next tee is like 40-50 yards left and away from the proposed green site, that is one big hooker.  I suppose they need to see their local PGA Professional. 

   The lack of uphill hole(s) isn't an issue, it just would add more versatility to the course IMO.  Which it's one cool piece of land. 

[Steve Lang]

Ben,


Sorry I missed the Summer Ball, maybe next year, did finally make it to Pure Mich..


Would they seriously consider implementing this change?  That first handful of holes can be very tough on folks and such a conversion of the 4th would certainly give players a slight rest before the 5th..


s

[BCowan]

Steve, 

   Hope to see you at Summer Ball in 18'.  Glad you made it to MI. 

   I don't know if they would seriously consider it, I don't see it in the near future.   I agree, #1, #2, and #4 are brutes.  I hope others that have played it chime in whether they like this idea or hate it. 

[BHoover]

Keep the trout stream as is for fly fishing.

[Tim Gavrich]

I like the way the 4th green sits in that little spot, so I'd be opposed to lengthening it to a par 5. Also, adding a full shot to the card would add time to rounds.


If this is about walking, I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of golfers at Greywalls walk.

[BCowan]

Tim,

    Adding time to the round for another shot, that is a stretch, especially because I'd bet most people bogey 4 as it is.  One has to drive and or walk up to the next tee, hitting a shot in the process isn't time consuming if you aren't Glenn Day! 

    This isn't about walking, though i walked it 2 of the 3 times and it was easier then I thought.  The thread is about routing and maximizing land features.  I understand you liking the current green location. 

Hoover,

  All for it, stream is long I think and has many spots if fishing is allowed

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps pics with aerials might help to better visualize.


Greywalls is certainly on my bucket list if I ever make it up that way....

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

    Adding time to the round for another shot, that is a stretch, especially because I'd bet most people bogey 4 as it is.  One has to drive and or walk up to the next tee, hitting a shot in the process isn't time consuming if you aren't Glenn Day! 

Ben--


Which takes longer: hitting a tee shot and an approach, or hitting a tee shot, a layup and then an approach?

[BCowan]

Kalen,

   Craig will take a bunch tomrw morning and we should have them up

[BCowan]

Tim,

    Adding time to the round for another shot, that is a stretch, especially because I'd bet most people bogey 4 as it is.  One has to drive and or walk up to the next tee, hitting a shot in the process isn't time consuming if you aren't Glenn Day! 

Ben--


Which takes longer: hitting a tee shot and an approach, or hitting a tee shot, a layup and then an approach?

Tim,

    The persons pre shot routine and whether they play ready golf is much more important in pace of play.  I take as much time or more on a chip shot and would wager my score would be the same playing original hole vs new proposed hole.  I'm prob +5 on the hole for 3 rounds. 

[Jon Heise]

WOW.  That's a crazy idea.  I consider 4 one of the best 3-4 holes on the course, so would be sad to lose it, but honestly I kind of like the idea.  Can't imagine they'd be able (or want) to really make the change, but I think it'd be pretty cool.

[BCowan]

Jon,

   I'm honored that you like the idea, for you are the Greywalls aficionado.  Actually i suggested to Craig that you could keep both holes and rotate every other day for the first year.  He seemed to like the idea 


Kalen,

   The photos are up in OP.  It's tough to see for the land has a lot of movement.  There is about a 30-40 yards carry from front of ditch to over the creek and gas line with shortish grass for the weaker player to navigate in between reducing the carry to 10 yards.  One of the photos shows a nob that would prob have to flattened a little for increased visibility of hazards.

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,


Thanks for posting those.  I like out of the box kind of stuff, and I think that could work.  I would love to spend a week up in those parts one of these summers....looks fantastic!

[Craig Moore]

First of all I would like to thank Ben for organizing a summer ball match up here in Marquette.  It is always a pleasure hosting a group that enjoys and appreciates golf in a similar manor that us passionate keepers do. 


This indeed is an interesting conversion as the flow from tee to green is a key element to proper golf design in regards to walking a golf course.  Our property up here is unique especially for the state of Michigan because we are the southern tip of the Canadian shield.  If you are familiar with most of Michigan and you were to enter our area blindly you would think you were no longer in the State.  Land forms dominated with rock outcrops give us a very different landscape.  With that being said the job Mike did routing the course on the clubs property was masterful; walking the heavy forest with him before construction and then watching his vision unfold was exciting.  Most of the natural rock land forms on property were not even known because they sat hidden within trees and Mike was able to reveal them and use them as features and hazards. 
Those rock features were not the only elements that Mike had to route around.  He also had to navigate around several wetland areas, a trout creek and a gas line; that is where number 4 was challenged.  The powers above us wanted minimal disturbance (none) around the small trout creek so number 4 green site (which is very good) was placed in its location.  While the 4th green only sits a half wedge from 5 tee, it is a walk over the creek bridge and then up to the tee.  Ben's point is very valid; turning the 4th hole into a par 5 would indeed make that hole to hole transition easier for the walking golfer. 
From a keepers perspective I like the change in regards to traffic control.  The change would mean lowering the right side hill, widening the fairway even more allowing us to spread cart traffic around and reduce tire impact on this fine golf hole. 
I also find Ben's thought of a two green golf hole creating a par 4/par 5 option at morning set up very interesting.  It could work and would get people talking golf; which is never a bad thing. 

[Adam Clayman]

This is a fine example of how easy it is to convince others to disrespect the art of the designer.


All well intentioned as it may be, it's quite a slippery slope.

[Craig Moore]

Mike is a wizard at routing, not sure there is anyone better.  He had many other golf holes on the property that were amazing but either a) just did not work with the flow of a routing or b) did not work because of environmental concerns. 
The conversation of this hole would be cool this way or this hole would be cool that way is mostly opinion based and will always take place.  Most of the conversations don't contain knowledge of what the actual reasons are for a final hole placement..... But are still fun to think about as you play a course.  Playing late evening cross country golf as a youth got me really thinking of alternative golf hole concepts. 
One of the most important things I have learned from Mike is the final flow of the routing as a whole matters most when putting 18 holes on a property.  You might find an unbelievably good hole in one location but it does not work as a whole if you force 4 holes in around it to make that one work.  When you factor in construction limitations based on environmental regulations or financial limitation on a project you will really experience how good an architect is. 


To answer the question about golf cart use here on Greywalls..... Unfortunately like most places today the golf cart is over utilized.  We have around 150 members that own their own carts and store them on site while the others 250 members that play the Greywalls course either purchase a yearly cart lease or rent as they play.  NMU is located here in Marquette and the Marquette Golf Club is their home course, they all walk while playing.  We only have 3-4 members that actually walk the course.  Public play almost always take a cart.  I make it a point to go talk to and thank individuals I see walking as they play.  If I had to put a number on it I would say 98% of the rounds are played with a golf cart. 

[Ken Fry]

This is a fine example of how easy it is to convince others to disrespect the art of the designer.


All well intentioned as it may be, it's quite a slippery slope.

Adam,

I agree with you but in this instance we all had discussions with Mike DeVries during our weekend at Marquette about this particular hole.  As has been mentioned, there's always constraints put on the designer most people will never know about.  In this instance, it's interesting to discuss options if the original constraints on the area between the current 4th green and 5th tee were lightened.

The 4th hole still stands out in my memory because after three plays I'm still not sure what the best strategy is for me.  I'm not long enough to crest the hill on the left side which leaves an awkward uphill shot to the green.  I can get in trouble down the right side because the ball can get through the fairway on me.  The only line I didn't try was directly at the rocks in the middle of the fairway!  Next time....

With all that said, I really like the 4th hole.  It provides options and as a player you need to choose an option and execute.  You can get punished if your execution is poor.  The discussion really centers on the transition from 4 green to 5 tee.  As Craig mentions, most of his play is from a cart.  What a shame!  I loved walking Greywalls because in a cart you miss too much being forced onto paths taking you away from fairways.  The transition from 4th green to 5th tee then back past the 4th green to the 5th fairway is a bit jarring.

I look at this idea in a few different ways.  Part of me really enjoys both 4 and 5 and I'd hate to see 4 changed.  But, Craig raises a great point that because of how the 4th fairway sits, carts get forced into particular paths creating soil compaction issues.  Opening up the right side could alleviate that issue.  I don't think shots from 4 fairway would endanger those on the 5th tee because the buffer between the proposed areas is quite large.  I like the idea because between the elevation changes in the corner leading up to the green site and the creek running across could provide some interesting strategy decisions.  One last reason I like the idea is my overall feel of the front nine.  It's hard!  Look at each hole of the front nine.  There's not much "let up" in there!  1 is a brutal opener with that damn green.  2 requires two excellent shots.  3 is a bit of a breather before tackling 4.  5 shouldn't be physically hard but mentally that's an intimidating tee shot and the green is no pushover.  6 requires a well struck long iron.  7 requires 2 really good shots to a green I could spend a day playing on trying to learn all the angles and humps on.  8 requires a pin point tee shot.  Then you reach 9 for what I consider the first "breather" on the front nine unless you miss the green left then it gets really interesting!

Could a par 5 4th provide that breather hole you'd beat yourself up over scoring worse than par?  Possibly.  The only things I know for certain from my trip are Greywalls was a blast and I wish it was more accessible for me and Craig Moore does a damn good job in how both Marquette and Greywalls are presented to his membership.  They've got two great courses tended to by a great supt.

Ken

[Bill Seitz]

To answer the question about golf cart use here on Greywalls..... Unfortunately like most places today the golf cart is over utilized.  We have around 150 members that own their own carts and store them on site while the others 250 members that play the Greywalls course either purchase a yearly cart lease or rent as they play.  NMU is located here in Marquette and the Marquette Golf Club is their home course, they all walk while playing.  We only have 3-4 members that actually walk the course.  Public play almost always take a cart.  I make it a point to go talk to and thank individuals I see walking as they play.  If I had to put a number on it I would say 98% of the rounds are played with a golf cart.

For people reading this who haven't been there, part of the problem is that it's a 10 minute drive (or felt like it, but Craig would know better than me) from the clubhouse to the first tee.  We rode all of our DeVries Cup rounds there a few years ago, but I remember thinking that it had some cool cut-throughs, and while it wouldn't be an easy walk, it would certainly be walkable, as long as you had a shuttle running from the clubhouse to the first tee and back.


I tell people who haven't played it that when you drive in, everything looks pretty normal. The Heritage course is a parkland style layout that looks like something you've seen before.  Then you get in a cart to drive over to Greywalls, you drive through some of the Heritage Course, you disappear into some woods, and when you come out on the other side, you feel like you've traveled through the magic wardrobe to Narnia.  The feel on that side is just so completely different that you can't believe you've only gone about 2/3 of a mile from where you started.

[BCowan]

Bill,


  The plan originally was to build a new clubhouse behind the 18th green mounds. There is a lot of room for parking back there. Then a quick shuttle to the 1st tee up the hill. It makes a ton of sense and it would be great down the road if they could. 
  The first round I played was a twilight one and we road.  I was thinking Doak and others were crazy stating it wasnt that bad of a walk as I was viewing some of the holes while riding. When I walked it for the first time it wasn't bad at all. The next day, I walked Langford in AM and Greywalls in PM and that wasn't bad at all. Now if it would have been humid or warm another story possibly.  So much is missed in a cart at Greywalls. 

[Mike_DeVries]

Sorry I haven't seen this yet. 

Ben and Ken, great fun at the event and thanks for organizing!

As to the proposed alteration, it is nice to see so many ideas and options discussed.  Good holes, not just bad ones, can foster good thoughts of "what about this" type of discussions. 

From a practical standpoint, the transition to get from the low point on the front side back up onto the central plateau was necessary and was never going to be easy.  The budget was very low and the rock is hard, so some things had to give.  The fourth was looked at as a par five, particularly when we thought we may have had more land to the west of the 5th hole, whereby that drive would have been less uphill and better aligned for a view of the 5th hole.  But we didn't, and so, the 4th green was left where it was, as it is pretty darn spectacular with its backdrop and cool, subtle green.  There was a narrow little wetland along the 4th that was mitigated to an area behind the 5th tees and keeping the Orianna creek intact was important in the environmental permitting for the project.  So, as cool as it could be, a par 5 fourth hole would involve considerable mitigation, dirt-moving, expense, and disruption to the environment and I am not sure it would even be allowed.  Therefore, we have a less-than-ideal transition from 4 to 5 to 5 fairway but it gets us where we need to be and is spectacular in its own way.  I have a friend whose favorite hole on Greywalls is #5, although I wish I had some more space to adjust the tee higher and the right for a better angle on the drive . . . it probably won't ever change, but nice to see the discussion.

Cheers,
Mike

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