Nine-holers that became eighteen holes and should have stayed at nine...

[Richard Fisher]

A recent conversation with a learned friend about  to visit historic Felixstowe for the first time suggests a GCA thread on those (mainly British, but not exclusively) nine-hole courses whose expansion to eighteen meant an undoubted diminution in the playing experience (even if such expansion may have helped to save the club financially). My personal Welsh nomination would unquestionably be Abersoch, but I am sure that there are numerous other candidates (as well as Felixstowe, above).

On this theme, many GCA members would doubtless have been fascinated/horrified to read the two important articles by Dr Mike Morrison in recent issues of Through the Green looking at the eighteen hole course that seems to have existed (very briefly!) at Worlington in 1893-1894, as the early committee of the W&NGC contemplated expansion of the Sacred Nine but (very fortunately) could not afford to make permanent their new 'Long Course'...

[Derek Holland]

Not by any means British but I played the Heritage Course at Marquette Golf Club this past summer and thought the nine Langford & Moreau holes were absolutely great. The additional 9 that was added in the late 60's IIRC was nowhere near as inspiring as the original 9 and had a totally different feel. If I could, I would just play the original 9 repeatedly 

[BCowan]

Derek,

+1. 


I'd nominate Tiffin Mowhawk in Ohio.  Though the front 9 is fine, it is such a let down to the Ross back 9.  Glad that Tom visited it and included it in the CG.  I have mixed emotions about not adding another weaker 9 for the locals enjoyment. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Derek beat me to it. Marquette immediately came to mind. The Langford nine is cool. The nine-hole addition, not so much.

[Tom_Doak]

The two already named are good choices.


I've not seen the new nine holes at Rolling Rock in PA, or at Harrison Hills in Indiana, but my gut tells me I would prefer just to play the original nine holes over again.  [Harrison Hills had to change one or two holes of the original nine to make the new holes fit.] 

[Joe Zucker]

Harrison Hills is interesting.  The new holes by Tim Liddy are good and I enjoyed playing them, but for the most part they looked and felt different from the original holes.  A couple of them extend out to some very flat land, which I'm sure is why Langford routed the course where he did on the better land.  In Ran's profile he called out the 12th as a new hole that looked as if it could be one of the originals.  I agree with Ran, but the 12th stands out in this regard as many of the other holes do not have the same look as the Langford originals. 


A controversial one might be Prairie Dunes.  The newer holes are very good, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone say they are as good as Perry's originals.

[Nigel Islam]

Harrison Hills is interesting.  The new holes by Tim Liddy are good and I enjoyed playing them, but for the most part they looked and felt different from the original holes.  A couple of them extend out to some very flat land, which I'm sure is why Langford routed the course where he did on the better land.  In Ran's profile he called out the 12th as a new hole that looked as if it could be one of the originals.  I agree with Ran, but the 12th stands out in this regard as many of the other holes do not have the same look as the Langford originals. 


A controversial one might be Prairie Dunes.  The newer holes are very good, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone say they are as good as Perry's originals.

Harrison Hills is a tough one. As it stands it is easily one of the top 20 courses in a slightly underrated golf state. I think you would be hard pressed to say the Langford holes, other than 15, are decidedly better than the Liddy holes though. What I will say is that you will never be treated better if you show up to a golf course unannounced. I've done this twice and they broke their back to accommodate me. 

[Nigel Islam]

I will nominate Winding River on the SW side of Indianapolis as a course with an interesting nine that became much less interesting with the addition.

[Brian Finn]

A controversial one might be Prairie Dunes.  The newer holes are very good, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone say they are as good as Perry's originals.

While the original 9 holes are stronger, I can't imagine anyone would suggest it should have stayed at 9 holes.  The "newer" holes are also superior and blend beautifully with the originals.  If you ask me, Prairie Dunes should not be mentioned in this thread.

On a separate note, there are several courses in NC & SC with 9 holes of Ross that later added another 9 designed by someone else.  While some of the new 9s are fine, I haven't seen any where they were close to the quality of the original Ross holes.  Fort Mill (SC) and Monroe (NC) are two good examples.

[J_ Crisham]

West Bend CC in Wisconsin . Front nine is very good- typical Langford Moreau . Bold bunkering/greens etc. With an aggressive tree removal the front 9 could rival Lawsonia. In fact I would submit it's a better piece of property than Lawsonia which is my favorite course in Wisconsin . The back 9 at West Bend is just awful. The design firm of Moe, Larry , and Curly were hard at work here.......

[BCrosby]

"A controversial one might be Prairie Dunes.  The newer holes are very good, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone say they are as good as Perry's originals."

Good catch Nigel. Agreed.

Bob

[Joe Zucker]

"While the original 9 holes are stronger, I can't imagine anyone would suggest it should have stayed at 9 holes.  The "newer" holes are also superior and blend beautifully with the originals.  If you ask me, Prairie Dunes should not be mentioned in this thread."
Brian,
I think I agree with you that Prairie Dunes is a superior experience with 18 holes, but that has a lot to do with the expectation of every course having 18 different holes.  Would a better day be had if you played the old holes twice or all holes once?  This is definitely a subjective answer.  If we agree that the original holes are better, then the value of having 18 different holes must be worth the cost of adding a few holes that are not quite as good. 

I don't know what the value is and I'm sure it varies by person, but for me the standard of 18 holes is so ingrained into my thinking it's hard to not think less of 9 holers.  I wish I didn't think like this, but I do.  I think the only cure is to play more great 9 hole courses...

[Terry Lavin]

A controversial one might be Prairie Dunes.  The newer holes are very good, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone say they are as good as Perry's originals.

While the original 9 holes are stronger, I can't imagine anyone would suggest it should have stayed at 9 holes.  The "newer" holes are also superior and blend beautifully with the originals.  If you ask me, Prairie Dunes should not be mentioned in this thread.

On a separate note, there are several courses in NC & SC with 9 holes of Ross that later added another 9 designed by someone else.  While some of the new 9s are fine, I haven't seen any where they were close to the quality of the original Ross holes.  Fort Mill (SC) and Monroe (NC) are two good examples.

Well said.

[Brian Finn]

Brian,
I think I agree with you that Prairie Dunes is a superior experience with 18 holes, but that has a lot to do with the expectation of every course having 18 different holes.  Would a better day be had if you played the old holes twice or all holes once?  This is definitely a subjective answer.  If we agree that the original holes are better, then the value of having 18 different holes must be worth the cost of adding a few holes that are not quite as good. 

This certainly is subjective, as is virtually everything on this discussion board.  However, I would venture to say that almost anyone who has been to Prairie Dunes would say the full 18 hole experience is better than playing the old holes twice.  If you asked 100 players (whether recreational golfers or gca nerds), I would be shocked if more than 1 said they'd rather play the original nine twice. 

The first nine holes are in the Doak 8.5 to 9.5 range.  The newer nine holes are in the Doak 7 to 8 range.  Blended, you get absolutely no lower than the high 7s (7.75 using straight math).  I would argue it is a strong 8, possibly a 9+.  Even if you take a haircut on these ratings (my own estimates), you get a world class golf course.  I can't imagine anyone actually thinking it would be better off had it stayed 9 holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

The 5th at Prairie Dunes was good enough to serve as a template for the 4th at Sand Hills. The 11th green complex may be the best on a long par 4 in all of golf.

[J_ Crisham]

The 5th at Prairie Dunes was good enough to serve as a template for the 4th at Sand Hills. The 11th green complex may be the best on a long par 4 in all of golf.

Better than the 1st green at PD? Better than the 8th green at PD? 1st green may be the best green on the entire course. As an aside , JK , you missed a great day at Bev on Saturday - we may have another Domer jr member before long.

[Garland Bayley]

Any 9 holer that Bunny Mason extended to 18.

[Richard Fisher]

The point I should perhaps have expanded in the original post was that 'diminution' in this context was of two kinds

1) the simple addition of a mediocre second nine holes, often on ground of less good quality than the original nine
2) the (malign) reworking of the original nine as part of an expansion to eighteen, often when there really isn't room for eighteen proper...

At least with (1) the sensitive soul can simply play the original nine twice.

[Duncan Cheslett]

A good call on Abersoch, typical of a good 9 hole links course being extended onto adjacent farmland.


There is a reason why such courses were built with 9 holes - there was only so much good land there!


Imagine Mildenhall being extended onto nearby pasture simply to get the number of holes up! 

[Thomas Dai]

From the GCA/posters herein perspective I can think of a few examples but a question nags in my mind.
If they'd stayed at 9-holes would they continue to exist?
We've been through the costs of operating 9 vrs 18 herein before and I can appreciate that on a fairly low-spec, low-maint, small clubhouse, low staff numbers, volunteer helpers etc 9-holers can survive, and that some (Sacred Nine) remain very well thought of and indeed flourish.
But what about the others, not your rural, rustics on sand or hilltops but those on clay/soil in urban or semi-urban areas? If they had remained as nice 9-holers but all the others around them were 18-holes would the nice 9-holers still exist or would they now be housing estates etc?
Just wondering.
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

All I know is that in my immediate area the following clubs have survived quite happily for 100 years+ as nine-holers;


Cheadle
Gatley
Alderley Edge
Ashton on Mersey
Avro (1960s)


This is in one suburban area in which there are another fifty or so 18 hole courses.


Two 9 holers that I know of have closed - Davenport sold their site for housing and moved to the countryside and built an 18 hole course. Mirrlees was a company-owned course primarily for its workers. When the company changed hands in the 1980s the course was closed with a view to development for housing. It remains overgrown and unused still.

[Thomas Dai]

Pleased to hear that some suburban 9-holers like the the ones you mention are still going Duncan. I'm a fan of 9-holers. There's a discussion point here that golf may be better if played over only 9-holes? A subject for a separate thread perhaps, although I guess it's probably been debated before.
atb

[Tim Martin]

Dorset Field Club in Vermont has an extremely fun and quirky 9 holes that dates back to the 1880's. The new nine built more than 100 years later does not fit or compliment the original and seems forced. If I was to play again I would prefer the outward(original) nine twice.

[Rees Milikin]

West Bend CC in Wisconsin . Front nine is very good- typical Langford Moreau . Bold bunkering/greens etc. With an aggressive tree removal the front 9 could rival Lawsonia. In fact I would submit it's a better piece of property than Lawsonia which is my favorite course in Wisconsin . The back 9 at West Bend is just awful. The design firm of Moe, Larry , and Curly were hard at work here.......

Especially when they had plans for a full L&M 18 holes and used someone else to build the other 9. 


The 3rd green at West Bend is something to behold!

[Brad Tufts]

I was going to say Dorset but Tim beat me to it.  I was honestly a bit disappointed by the old 9 at DFC, after I had long wanted to give the course a try.  It's not bad by any stretch, just not hugely memorable.

New England has a bunch of courses like this, with a good old nine and a new nine that is less than amazing.  Biddeford -Saco (Ross + Cornish & Silva), Brunswick (Stiles + Cornish), Cape Neddick (Ross + Silva), and Waterville (Orrin Smith + Cornish)  in Maine, CC of NH (Stiles + Mitchell) and Kingswood in NH (Ross + Tom Clark), CC of Barre (Stiles + Hurdzan) and St. Johnsbury (Willie Park + Cornish) in VT.  Crumpin-Fox in Central Mass. would be another, but the two nines were within 10 years of each other, under the same design flag, with RTJ doing the first nine and Rulewich doing the other.

All of these are worth a play, with expectation of a less-than-spectacular compilation or tie-in of two nines.

How about the Broadmoor (Ross) being split into two lesser (but still pretty good) courses by 18 RTJ holes in the 50s/60s?  Not sure if this fits, as it's a resort that no doubt wanted more golf without there being a clear favorite course that everyone wanted to play.