Changing Tastes

[Tom_Doak]

i sat on the plane this morning next to a longtime USGA volunteer.  He said when he moved out of his longtime house a few years back, he stumbled upon the 1975 GOLF DIGEST ranking, of which he had resolved to play every course, and since his retirement he has been steadily checking off the 37 courses he still hadn't played.  He will finish up this week with Coldstream and Canterbury.


The interesting bit is the turnover.  Anyone care to guess how many of GOLF DIGEST's top 100 c. 1975 are still on their list today?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Probably less than 25. I think CPC used to be ranked around 50.  And I am certain a few higher ranked courses would fail to make a top 1000 today!

[Mark Saltzman]

50?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Was't Pine Tree and Medinah in the top 10.  And Princeville, Pauma Valley, and Stanwich probably were included

[Garland Bayley]

15 tops

[Tom_Doak]

15 tops

Really?  There are maybe 4-5 modern courses in the top 25 now.  How many of the rest do you think were missing entirely?  (I think it's 3). 

[John Kirk]

I'll guess 35.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I would guess 55-60 are still on the list.  I believe I read something like 280 courses have appeared on the GD Top 100 List since they started ranking the Top 100. 
Mark

[JESII]

I'd go with John Kirk in the mid-30's.

[Eric Hammerbacher]

Wasn't NGLA not even on the list?  I'm thinking 40 were there since '75

[Eric Hammerbacher]

So I just looked NGLA was Top 100  1967-68 and  back on from 1985-2017.  What could it have possibly been like between that time?!?

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm with Mark S: I say about 50.
That was over 40 years ago, and a decisive 40 years at that. I mean, that's 40 years worth of then-new work by Nicklaus and Dye and Fazio -- some of which must've knocked off an array of long but now-long-forgotten examples of mediocrity.
Then add into the mix the once-hidden gems and the dozens of then-tier-two Ross' and Raynor's and Dr Mac's that the enlightenment and restorations and marketing efforts and Tom D's praise in the GC brought to the fore, and I can easily see 40+ courses dropped from the 1975 list...even before the fairly recent run of great new courses by the renaissance's big names.
Add those in and you get to 50 additions to -- and 50 disappearances from -- the 1975 list.
It's a big number, but that's because it's not only 'changing tastes' -- it's also changing fashions, changing personalities (architects and writers), changing golfers, changing economics, and changing business-models (for the magazines).
But of course, from now until the year 2057, there won't be anywhere near that many now-revered designs dropping off the list...  
Peter

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm guessing somewhere between 35 and 40 courses stood the test of time. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Looking at the current list there are 40-45 courses built after 1975, and three built in 1974.  So the number on both lists should be 40-50.

[Charles Lund]

I counted 53 in the current top 100 which were built before 1975.


So definitely not more than 53.


Charles Lund

[Tom_Doak]

The correct number (according to my new friend) is 37.


Charles, I was initially surprised that there are that many classic courses on the list today that weren't back then. The three I could name off the top of my head were NGLA, Fishers Island, and Crystal Downs, but I guess there are a lot of shortish Raynor courses on the GOLF DIGEST list now, that weren't before ... Camargo, Shoreacres, Piping Rock, etc.


I do not have the 1975 list to verify this last bit, but my friend said that the architect with the most top 100 courses in 1975 was ...


Dick Wilson !


If so, it is AMAZING how far his star has fallen.  I guess back then he would have had NCR, Meadow Brook, Coldstream, Laurel Valley, Bay Hill [maybe], Pine Tree, Doral, Cog Hill, and La Costa.

[Garland Bayley]

15 tops

Really?  There are maybe 4-5 modern courses in the top 25 now.  How many of the rest do you think were missing entirely?  (I think it's 3).

I know GD started their list as the most difficult. I guess by 75 they moved away from that. I would guess RTJ would have lead on the most difficult list.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

The correct number (according to my new friend) is 37.


Charles, I was initially surprised that there are that many classic courses on the list today that weren't back then. The three I could name off the top of my head were NGLA, Fishers Island, and Crystal Downs, but I guess there are a lot of shortish Raynor courses on the GOLF DIGEST list now, that weren't before ... Camargo, Shoreacres, Piping Rock, etc.


I do not have the 1975 list to verify this last bit, but my friend said that the architect with the most top 100 courses in 1975 was ...


Dick Wilson !


If so, it is AMAZING how far his star has fallen.  I guess back then he would have had NCR, Meadow Brook, Coldstream, Laurel Valley, Bay Hill [maybe], Pine Tree, Doral, Cog Hill, and La Costa.

Have to imagine that it might be equally shocking 40 years from now that Fazio had the most top 100 courses in 2017

[Peter Pallotta]

I find myself wishing that we could have both -- ie that our collective tastes were broad and contained multitudes; and that the well-deserved inclusion of Raynor-Shoreacres and Piping Rock didn't go hand in hand with the exclusion of Wilson-Cog Hill and Pine Tree (I don't know if those specifically are 'out' but you know what I mean).
The latter served one kind of golf, the former a different kind -- but after a decade and a half of reading the whys and hows of it all, I still can't quite convince myself that the differences really are all that different, or all that important.
Peter

[Tom_Doak]

I find myself wishing that we could have both -- ie that our collective tastes were broad and contained multitudes; and that the well-deserved inclusion of Raynor-Shoreacres and Piping Rock didn't go hand in hand with the exclusion of Wilson-Cog Hill and Pine Tree (I don't know if those specifically are 'out' but you know what I mean).
The latter served one kind of golf, the former a different kind -- but after a decade and a half of reading the whys and hows of it all, I still can't quite convince myself that the differences really are all that different, or all that important.

Peter:


I agree with you, yet I don't have many of those Dick Wilson designs anywhere near my own top 100 list.  It seems to me their quality was based on challenge, and challenge is a somewhat fleeting thing.  Cog Hill and Doral and Bay Hill have been heavily modified trying to restore that challenge, while NCR and Meadow Brook and Coldstream have lost favor because they are so longer the most challenging courses around.

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting Dick Wilson comes up as the example of changing tastes.

After playing NCR South a few days ago, I want to see more Dick Wilson courses. My only prior experience had been Lone Palm here in Lakeland, FL, which has been worked over a bit by Steve Smyers grass lines.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just looking back to the early 1990's when we were in the Top 100, there are 25-30 courses no longer in the top 100. Change of tastes, better earth moving equipment, more dramatic sites? All of the above?

[Tom_Doak]

Just looking back to the early 1990's when we were in the Top 100, there are 25-30 courses no longer in the top 100. Change of tastes, better earth moving equipment, more dramatic sites? All of the above?

Tony:


No doubt there have been 10-15 new courses built in that period that clearly deserve a place in the top 100, due to site selection and design [not to mention marketing effort$].  There's always going to be turnover in the lists.


However several of the courses that have gone into the list are older courses that have done renovations [which also attracts attention].

[Jim Nugent]

I'm guessing these courses are on both lists (I only came up with 24)...

 Pine Valley

ANGC
Pebble
Oakmont
Oakland Hills
Oak Hill
CPC
Olympic
Riviera
Southern Hills
Baltusrol
Prairie Dunes
Pinehurst 2
Seminole
The Country Club
Medinah 3
Merion
Winged Foot
Peachtree
Spyglass
Interlachen
Cherry Hills
Congressional
Inverness
Anyone have other guesstimates? 

[Brian Finn]

Here are the 39 that appear on both the 1975 list and the 2017 list:

Aronimink
ANGC
Baltusrol Lower
Bethpage Black
Cherry Hills
Chicago GC
Congressional Blue
Crooked Stick
Cypress Point
Interlachen
Inverness
Kittansett
Laurel Valley
LACC North
Maidstone
Medinah #3
Merion East
Muirfield Village
Oak Hill East
Oakland Hills South
Oakmont
Olympia Fields North
Peachtree
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Plainfield
Prairie Dunes
Riviera
SFGC
Scioto
Seminole
Shinnecock
Southern Hills
Spyglass Hill
The Country Club
The Golf Club
Olympic Lake
Winged Foot West

Notable omissions from the 1975 list (2017 GD rank): 

NGLA (8 )
Fishers Island (11)
Crystal Downs (12)
Garden City (46)
Camargo (52)
Baltusrol Upper (61)
Winged Foot East (62)
Somerset Hills (64)
Shoreacres (66)
Milwaukee CC (71)
Quaker Ridge (76)
Valley Club (80)
Yeamans Hall (87)
Essex County (91)