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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 08:50:44 AM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that

NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock is a better championship test. That's how I phrase it. Both are in my top 5 favorites.


Jim-I would split the rounds 5-5 given ten plays. I think Shinnecock is tougher but no less fun. I could play the stretch of 9-11 in perpetuity. What about you?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 06:09:31 AM by Tim Martin »

Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 08:52:35 AM »
Isn't fun a legitimate category for rating courses?  They call it other stuff like walk in the park, but we know what that is code for. I will say that I really like good awkward holes even of they aren't exactly fun.  A bit of head scratchin' goes a long way, but it can be a fine line between good awkward and silly or a slog....and that fine line could be down to how one feels on the day.

Ted

Of my top 20 favourites...Dornoch is the least fun to play.

Ciao


Sean,

Would love to have your list of 19 that are more fun to play than Dornoch.  Those I have not played on that list will be placed on my "to do" list. 

TS

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 09:06:18 AM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that

NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock is a better championship test. That's how I phrase it. Both are in my top 5 favorites.


Obviously the USGA and most of the world agree with you.
NGLA was a monster in its day-it's just equipment has expanded more than its tees-so it's given the mantra of "fun" rather than diabolical, strategic and punishing design. Imagine professionals approaching going bottom right on 2 and approaching 3, 4 10,11, 12,15,16 with woods and long irons as it was originally designed.


Shinnecock has continued expanding tees over the (now inc. 2018) 4 Opens over the last 32 years.
They are attempting to keep up with modern equipment.
Should the wind not blow in 2018,(and the course actually have live grass on it this go round) Shinnecock will be dealt the blow NGLA, Inwood, Siwanoy and many other courses have suffered at the hands of technology-and(if the Blue Coats continue to not regulate equipment) we will need to see Erin Hills squared at 9000+ yards -(with usual wind and narrow fairways) to host a proper Open.


A few pros played Shinny this week and one of the members that walked it with them was stunned to see how seldom they hit driver-and the fairways are still wide I believe.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 01:32:25 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 09:45:07 AM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that

NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock is a better championship test. That's how I phrase it. Both are in my top 5 favorites.


Jim-Personally I would split the rounds 5-5 given ten plays. I think Shinnecock is tougher but no less fun. I could play the stretch of 9-11 in perpetuity. What about you?

Seeing that both are in my top 5, I would do a 5-5 split as well.
Mr Hurricane

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2017, 11:00:31 AM »
How about someone giving me a list of 5 great courses that are fun and 5 great courses that are not fun?


Not going into the name game instead some factors that when in excess may contribute to the fun/less fun debate either individually or more likely when in some combination -


Forced carries would be less fun
4+ hour rounds would be less fun
Long green to tee walks/rides would be less fun
Excess undulations would be less fun
Lack of width would be less fun


A bit like the opposite of Dr MacK's 13 principals.


Atb


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2017, 01:18:05 PM »
I think if we used "fun to play" as the key factor to rating golf courses we would finally come up with a Top 100 list that is correct  ;D


In all seriousness, this criteria IS absolutely factored into every course rating that I have ever seen.  Think about it, who is going to rate a course highly that is bland and boring to play?  If a course has no interest, no intrigue, no temptation, ..., it will probably not be rated very highly.  Then again, defining what is fun is about as subjective as you can get. 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2017, 01:46:28 PM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that


Peer pressure. Most people are afraid of what other people think of them.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2017, 01:47:18 PM »
Take Chambers Bay, please.   When I played it I quickly discovered it would be a fun course for me because of all the side slopes around the green.   But I doubt any professional considered it a fun course when they runned the US Open.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2017, 02:21:26 PM »
Can a course be considered great if it's not fun to play??
H.P.S.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Fun to play
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2017, 03:32:19 PM »
When I was a boy, the only thing that was fun about fishing was catching fish. Sitting on an uncle's aluminum boat with a 25 hp outboard, floating on a still, shallow, weedy lake, I wanted to catch as many perch and sunfish and rock bass as I could - using my over-powering 20 lb test line and spin-reel and a bobber and as many live worms as I could squeeze onto the hook. And if/when the fish weren't biting, it was no fun at all - it was boring.
I've hardly fished 3 or 4 times since then - but the times that I have I've gone out with a friend who is a dedicated fly fisherman. Standing by or in a fast moving river, slowly getting better at using only the simplest/essential equipment - a long pole and a very light line and basically a spool as a reel - and developing the rhythmic fluid motion necessary to get a tiny hand-tied 'fly' to drop in exactly the one spot where you think you might've seen a speckled trout.
I've never caught a single fish this way, despite hours out there -- but it has never been boring, and indeed a lot more "fun" than catching perch by the bucketfuls. There is the focus needed, and the learning, and the challenge.
Which is to say: I think worse than the exclusion of fun as a rating criteria is too narrow (and too prescriptive) a definition of fun. It ends up creating an environment where every new course and every renovation of an old one starts following the same template -- ie width, width, width, no trees, width, width, short 4s, width, no water, width, width, width, half-pars, width, run-ups, width, width, no forced carries, width, width, quick pace of play, width, easy walking, width, width, width, short green-tee transitions!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:15:23 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2017, 04:04:11 PM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that

NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock is a better championship test. That's how I phrase it. Both are in my top 5 favorites.

How would a U.S. Open at NGLA work out?  Assume F&F and challenging pins. 

Probably impossible but I'd still love to see a U.S. Open shared by NGLA and Shinnie.  First two rounds played on both courses, Saturday at NGLA, and Sunday at Shinnie. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2017, 04:18:21 PM »
.... ends up creating an environment where every new course and every renovation of an old one starts following the same template -- ie width, width, width, no trees, width, width, width, short 4s, width, width, width, no water, width, width, width, half-pars, width, width, width, run-ups, width...


Sounds good to me except that you've omitted no forced carries, easy walking, quick pace of play, short green-tee transitions! :)
Atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: Fun to play
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2017, 05:12:09 PM »
T - you're absolutely right: I've edited my post to make those additions!  :)
P

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2017, 05:16:30 PM »
I was talking about this a couple of weeks ago with a good friend while we were playing Stonewall's North Course. The North is one of my absolute favorite courses to play because it's so darn fun! I said to him "there are more well-known courses in the Philly area, and one could argue that there are better designs, but regardless, this is one of my favorites. It's so much fun."

While each hole definitely presents their own challenges, each has seemingly has a "risk-reward" aspect to its design. And the greens! So much fun. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 05:19:00 PM by Matt Frey, PGA »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2017, 06:52:29 PM »
 8)  Peter, but they do call it fishing not catching eh?  For some playing is fun, for others scoring is the fun metric...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2017, 03:54:32 AM »
I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that


Peer pressure. Most people are afraid of what other people think of them.

To me its more about seeing the total package.  A lot of folks don't like the stuff I consider fun so you are left with looking at the quality of the holes.  Some fun holes are really crap design if playability is at all important.  But I always say...give me your favourites because that is what really matters.  Is obvious that if we only talk about quality the same 200 courses are discussed. The only way to dig deeper is to talk about favourites. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2017, 09:49:39 AM »
Challenging yourself is fun, which can be a factor for harder courses being considered fun.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2017, 11:01:52 AM »
So Sean, what is the "total package"?  Does a course with the total package mean the course is then great?  If the course is great does that mean it must be fun?  Are courses that are not fun not great?  If a course is too hard or too easy can it still be great?  How much quirk is good before it becomes goofy?  If a course doesn't have any quirk is it blah?  [/size]I would love to know the correct definition of what supposedly makes a course "great" 😊

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2017, 10:23:26 AM »
When I think of U.S. courses, I always think of accessibility, given the barriers to play at many of our Top 100 or 200. When considering fun, I think about a recurring experience playing a course, as opposed to maybe a once in a lifetime experience or a vicarious experience seeing a tournament on TV.

When I think of a course as fun, I often think about how much I would like to play a course quite a bit more or how often I have actually gone back over and over.  Some of my favorite courses are rated Doak 5 or 6 and I have traveled far to play them again and again.  Often, the course or club offers good craic, a warm welcome, hospitality, and value. 

I have overseas memberships at clubs at opposite ends of the earth.  I love travel and enmeshment in other cultures in general. I can combine that with golf.  When asked why I had gotten memberships where I did, I had repeated good experiences playing there and decided to try to return again and again.  When the best of the best are not accessible at all or have multi-year waitlists, the lack of opportunity is the barrier.

I don't confuse my idea of fun and enjoyment with architectural greatness.  But give me a Doak 4 to 6 where I can return that offers other quality experiences personally meaningful to me and I might be back again and again.

Charles Lund


I'm amazed it's not the ONLY criteria.....


I can't tell you how many people tell that NGLA is more fun but Shinnecock the better course.
Never understand that


Peer pressure. Most people are afraid of what other people think of them.

To me its more about seeing the total package.  A lot of folks don't like the stuff I consider fun so you are left with looking at the quality of the holes.  Some fun holes are really crap design if playability is at all important.  But I always say...give me your favourites because that is what really matters.  Is obvious that if we only talk about quality the same 200 courses are discussed. The only way to dig deeper is to talk about favourites. 

Ciao

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2017, 06:02:51 PM »
Ally

You are presented a false dichotomy.  I would characterize the situation as courses which are more fun than others.  So with that in mind

Muirfield
Lytham
Troon
Carnoustie
Pinehurst


Sandwich
North Berwick
Lahinch
TOC
Prestwick

You figure out which group I consider more fun.  8)

Ciao


Well, I've only played three of those and they're all fun. TOC, North Berwick and Prestwick.


The problem with using the fun factor as a criteria is that it is SO dependent on ability, or more precisely, skills.


I suck as a golfer generally, but my if I listed golf my skills from best to worst, relative to "Average," the list would be like this:


greenside bunker play
pitching
chipping
putting
?
?
?
?
?
fairway woods
short irons
long irons (Well, hybrids)
driving


At one time I carried a single-digit handicap while hitting fewer than four greens in regulation on average.


So it's pretty apparent why I think Brora and TOC are fun.  And why I struggle to appreciate Royal Dornoch, Jubilee, Cruden Bay (from the medal tees anyway). On one of my below average ball striking days I might lose six or eight golf balls and fail to finish three or four holes.


Not fun. Worst of all, when faced with the prospect of a long carry off the tee, or lost ball threat on both sides of a fairway, my shitty driving gets even worse.


I've been in Scotland since July 26 and I've played something like a dozen different courses.  I've had exactly two rounds where I finished every hole, and I shot 87 both times (I'm a 17 handicap).


Those two courses were TOC and Brora.


What's interesting is that a few years ago a friend of mine who's the golf coach at Emory had his team in northern Scotland while we were here.  They played Royal Dornoch twice in one day and then we played Brora with them.


Everyone on the team and the coach said Brora was fun.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2017, 06:32:30 PM »
So Sean, what is the "total package"?  Does a course with the total package mean the course is then great?  If the course is great does that mean it must be fun?  Are courses that are not fun not great?  If a course is too hard or too easy can it still be great?  How much quirk is good before it becomes goofy?  If a course doesn't have any quirk is it blah?  I would love to know the correct definition of what supposedly makes a course "great"

The total package is just that. A good enough course, lovely views, interesting house, good location or whatever it means to you have the day be worth your time and money.  No, for me great courses don't have to be fun.  No, fun courses to me are not necessarily great.  But I am not looking for greatness as the ultimate decider on whether or not I have time for a course. Greatness is over-rated.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2017, 07:04:48 PM »
Sean,
"Greatness is over-rated"?  I will actually have to think about that a little bit.  I do believe I am going to have to beg to differ though.  What I will agree with is that greatness is "relative".  One of my favorite courses is a venue in the Scottish Highlands called Pitlochry.  On the Doak scale it might be a 3 or 4 but I just remember having such a good time playing and walking the course.  Is it great?  Well that depends on what your definition of great is doesn't it  ;)


Mark

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2017, 07:38:43 PM »
Sean,
On the Doak scale it might be a 3 or 4 but I just remember having such a good time playing and walking the course.  Is it great? Well that depends on what your definition of great is doesn't it  ;)

Mark

Thats exactly what I am talking about with greatness is over-rated.  You love Pitlochry and since you gave it a 3-4 it sure isn't great.  I am the same with Kington and Perranporth.  They aren't great courses, but they are interesting and in wonderful locations.  I don't need a great course when there are places like this about.  On the other end of the scale, I don't understand why we can't say a course is great, but that it isn't a favourite or doesn't score high on the fun factor.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2017, 08:16:35 PM »
Sean,
I think we are saying the same thing - sort of.  Where I think we still differ is on the definition of greatness?  The Doak scale I think is geared to the quality and/or greatness of the design and with all due respect I have never played a course that I believed was an 8 or 9 or 10 on that scale that I didn't like or thought was over-rated (otherwise I wouldn't give it that high of a rating in the first place).  Pine Valley for example will never be fun for most higher handicappers.  Who likes to play holes that you can't finish?  Some do but some don't.  But it is hard to argue that Pine Valley is over-rated.  Then again, if you have a different definition of what is great, then maybe for that person it is  :)   


This is why there will always be controversy with any set of course rankings and it still boggles my mind that people here get so bent out of shape about them.  It is all relative. 
Mark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fun to play
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2017, 09:00:21 PM »
Sean,
I think we are saying the same thing - sort of.  Where I think we still differ is on the definition of greatness?  The Doak scale I think is geared to the quality and/or greatness of the design and with all due respect I have never played a course that I believed was an 8 or 9 or 10 on that scale that I didn't like or thought was over-rated (otherwise I wouldn't give it that high of a rating in the first place).  Pine Valley for example will never be fun for most higher handicappers.  Who likes to play holes that you can't finish?  Some do but some don't.  But it is hard to argue that Pine Valley is over-rated.  Then again, if you have a different definition of what is great, then maybe for that person it is  :)   


This is why there will always be controversy with any set of course rankings and it still boggles my mind that people here get so bent out of shape about them.  It is all relative. 
Mark




Sean,
I for one define "great" as courses that subjectively appeal to me. i.e. favorites.
After all, if someone asks me if a course is great, all I can give is MY opinion.
It would be hard for me to consider any course " great" that I didn't like, even if others thought it was great.  The good news is that this is all semantics as we share similar tastes in what we like, except you are more objective about considering a course that you don't like being "great".


Mark,
I could easily see someone thinking Pine Valley as over rated as it rated was number 1 for years. It could be indeed "great", yet not be considered the "best" by someone and therefore it be over rated. I personally don''t have Pine Valley in my Top 10 so I'd have to say it was over rated-yet still a great course.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey