Untouched classic Robert Trent Jones courses

[Bill Shamleffer]

I was visiting my old hometown of St. Louis this past weekend, and happened to stop by Old Warson CC to visit a friend.


Old Warson is a classic 1950s Robert Trent Jones course.  I once discussed to someone that Old Warson was an example of a RTJ course that was very similar to many of his courses for that time period, but that was what the memberships wanted at these courses.  They were busy with careers, did not play much "travel golf", and thus wanted the RTJ experience at their home club for their Sat morning round of golf.


But during my visit this past weekend, it occurred to me that unlike nearby Bellerive CC, Old Warson has not changed.  It is still the same routing, the same greens, primarily the same bunkering and tees.


Personally, I think Old Warson is more fun to play as opposed to Bellerive.  Although I will grant that for a scratch player, Bellerive, might demand more from one's game.  But I am not good enough to have my game tested at that level.


Old Warson has not had the big tournaments that Bellerive has had, with next year's PGA Championship being the 5th major/WGC event scheduled there.  Other than the 1971 Ryder Cup at Old Warson (and then this was not a big event in the US), Old Warson has limited itself to hosting a variety of amateur events.  In the last 18 years, these have included three USGA Championships (a US Womans Am., US Mid-Am, and US Senior AM).


How unusual is it to find a 60 year-old RTJ top-end private country club course, that is unchanged?
What can be learned from now studying a top tier RTJ course that is primarily the same course that it was in 1955?






[On an aside, I played the 9-hole Highland golf course in Forest Park for the first time since it was refurbished.  This is a very fun, decent conditioned muni that is a fun course for all skill levels.  I played with a 1/2 set, and if I go back during a future visit, might limit my 1/2 set to: hybrid, 5/7/9, 2wedges, & putter.]

[John Blain]

Bill-
I don't believe the club ever hosted the USGA Women's Mid Am. I believe you are confusing it with the club's hosting of the Men's USGA Mid Am in 1999, which was won by Danny Green.


I had a good friend who played in that event and he told me he loved the course.


Best,
John

[Bill Shamleffer]

John:


You are correct, it was the Men's Mid-Am.  I accidently typed UW instead of US for the Mid-Am & Senior Am.  I have corrected that.


I caddied at the 1999 Mid-Am, and Bellerive was used for the 2nd qualifying course.  It would be interesting to hear from anyone who played in that event what they thought about the contrasts and similarities between these two courses.

[David_Tepper]

Bill S. -

 I can't say for sure, but my guess is Pauma Valley CC in north San Diego County is pretty much untouched since it opened roughly 60 years ago. The "runway" tee strips are certainly intact.

https://www.paumavalleycc.com/

Link to the Robert Trent Jones Scoiety:

https://www.paumavalleycc.com/golf/robert-trent-jones-society

DT

[David Davis]

I'm hardly an expert or for that matter a big fan of RTJ but the best example of a classic design by him that is I believe mostly still in tact would be Peachtree. Which is also my favorite course of his that I've seen by a mile.


The powers that be suggested that Bobby Jone's influence along with the influence that Stanley Thompson had on him in his early days before he became totally commercialized are some of the reasons this is his best. (or at least one of them)

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm hardly an expert or for that matter a big fan of RTJ but the best example of a classic design by him that is I believe mostly still in tact would be Peachtree. Which is also my favorite course of his that I've seen by a mile.


The powers that be suggested that Bobby Jone's influence along with the influence that Stanley Thompson had on him in his early days before he became totally commercialized are some of the reasons this is his best. (or at least one of them)

David,
You summed up my feelings about Peachtree perfectly.  I'll even go a step farther and say that it is arguably the best course I've ever played by anybody; I think it's that good.

Which always makes me wonder about the mix of Jones and Jones in the design.  I like it so much more than any other RTJ course I've ever played that it's a little hard to reconcile that course to his others. 

[Mike Hendren]

I doubt there has been much change at Turtle Point Yacht & Country Club in Alabama. 

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

I would vouch for Old Warson, Pauma Valley and Peachtree, as long as they haven't been changed since I saw them.  [I have not been to Turtle Point.]  Peachtree is much different than Mr. Jones' other courses, because of the influence of the other Bobby Jones.

[BCrosby]

Other than tree removal and some new back tees, P'tree has changed very little.


Bob

[MCirba]

One of my favorite early RTJ Sr. courses is Green Lakes State Park GC outside Syracuse.

I played there back in the summer of 1975 with a friend from our high school golf team (we visited his uncle in the area) and I recall looking at beautiful sweeping vistas and compelling golf holes from the hilltop clubhouse.  You could see much of the golf course from there and it just begged to be played

Two weeks ago we had a family camping weekend in the park and though I didn't play, I did take a drive over to soak it all in again.   To my dismay, it was somewhat unrecognizable.   From the looks of it on historicaerials.com, it seems along the way a variety of trees were planted along the holes and you really have to position yourself correctly to see more than a single hole or so from the original vistas.

The land, which is great golf land like much of upstate NY with all sorts of neat micro-rolls and other glacial features, is now largely hidden from view.

Sad.

[Eric LeFante]

Has the Cornell University golf course changed since he built it?

[MCirba]

Eric,

I believe it's fairly intact but what I have in my records is that nine holes opened in 1941 and the other nine in 1954.   I'm not sure if they were designed at the same time, or in separate efforts.

[Brian Finn]

I would recommend A Difficult Par: Robert Trent Jones Sr. and the Making of Modern Golf to anyone interested in the man himself or his courses.  It provides quite a bit of context and detail about many of his courses, and it is well written.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport has always struck me as a thoroughly sound RTJ course. It's not 50s, probably not 60s, but possibly 70s. When I used to play it I could drive about 250 yards and it seemed to be brilliantly, but sparingly, bunkered. You were always made to think. It was obviously done to a restricted budget and it brilliantly incorporated the needs of others who were not in the least interested in golf; walkers, riders, cyclists etc. All were given access to the site, but cleverly hidden from each other.


I think there are only two other RTJ courses in Britain, Moor Allerton, near Leeds, and (how much?) possibly Celtic Manor in Wales. I hope that someone else has played Stockley Park and can give an opinion. I think it is something that Sean might essay with interest.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

John:


You are correct, it was the Men's Mid-Am.  I accidently typed UW instead of US for the Mid-Am & Senior Am.  I have corrected that.


I caddied at the 1999 Mid-Am, and Bellerive was used for the 2nd qualifying course.  It would be interesting to hear from anyone who played in that event what they thought about the contrasts and similarities between these two courses.

Bill, I caddied at that tournament too - had the lucky draw getting the bag of the defending champion Spider Miller, though he lost in the first round of match play.

I picked up from my foursome that they felt Bellerive was superior. In fact one of the players remarked it was best golf course he had ever played. But as you stated, for scratch players Bellerive is probably more appealing to long hitters and those who like framed holes. Old Warson makes you think more. I think then Old Warson tipped out at 6900, whereas Bellerive was 7300-7400. Very long in 1999.

What I remember most were the shirts Spider wore each day, from some prestigious amateur event he played, when you reach "made man" status in amateur golf.  Pine Valley , Seminole, Garden City. I hardly knew anything of these courses, but went back to computer each night to research and kept coming to the same website - Golf Club Atlas. It was the only source you could find write ups and pictures of these hallowed grounds. Thanks Ran

[Steve Burrows]

I believe that the original 18 holes at Otter Creek in Columbus, Indiana is pretty well untouched.  Though perhaps not his RTJ's finest work, it is representative of his style during that era.  My guess is that the course will continue to be maintained as it originally was, primarily because of its direct connection to the other important works of modernist architecture within the city.

[John Blain]

One of the really great quotes I have ever read about the golf courses designed by Robert Trent Jones, Sr. came from, I believe, Tom Doak when he referred to RTJ's style as "The Howard Johnson school of architecture."


One of the great lines ever (mostly because it's true )


-John

[David_Tepper]

I almost forgot the RTJ-designed Hominy Hill GC in Colts Neck, NJ. It was built in the 1960's as a private course for Henry Mercer, a guy in the shipping business, to be used to entertain his (mostly Asian) business clients. The course got very little play back then.

Mr. Mercer's obit:

http://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/12/archives/henry-d-mercer-is-dead-at-84-founder-of-steamship-company.html?_r=0

The course was sold to the Monmouth County Parks Department around 1976 and has been a public course ever since. I doubt that the course has changed much at all since it was built.

It is one of the few courses to host both the Mens' & Womens' Publinx.

http://hominyhill.com/     

[Sam Krume]

Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport has always struck me as a thoroughly sound RTJ course. It's not 50s, probably not 60s, but possibly 70s. When I used to play it I could drive about 250 yards and it seemed to be brilliantly, but sparingly, bunkered. You were always made to think. It was obviously done to a restricted budget and it brilliantly incorporated the needs of others who were not in the least interested in golf; walkers, riders, cyclists etc. All were given access to the site, but cleverly hidden from each other.


I think there are only two other RTJ courses in Britain, Moor Allerton, near Leeds, and (how much?) possibly Celtic Manor in Wales. I hope that someone else has played Stockley Park and can give an opinion. I think it is something that Sean might essay with interest.

Mark, When was the last time you were at Stockley?I was there two years ago and if its the same one as you mention(I believe there is only one), I thought it to be a terrible mess, very unloved. What is it with the walk accross the bridge, you crossover to play some really nothing holes IMO.

[Eric LeFante]

I almost forgot the RTJ-designed Hominy Hill GC in Colts Neck, NJ. It was built in the 1960's as a private course for Henry Mercer, a guy in the shipping business, to be used to entertain his (mostly Asian) business clients. The course got very little play back then.

Mr. Mercer's obit:

http://www.nytimes.com/1978/03/12/archives/henry-d-mercer-is-dead-at-84-founder-of-steamship-company.html?_r=0

The course was sold to the Monmouth County Parks Department around 1976 and has been a public course ever since. I doubt that the course has changed much at all since it was built.

It is one of the few courses to host both the Mens' & Womens' Publinx.

http://hominyhill.com/   

I grew up playing Hominy Hill and have played hundreds of rounds there. Over the past 5 years, all the bunkers have been rebuilt. Prior to 5 years ago, the bunkers hadn't been touched.


The 17th green is not original. 17 is a par 5 and the original green was narrow with a lot of slope in it. The new green was built in the 1970s or 1980s and is very large with more gentle slopes.


There are only two par 4s or 5s that aren't doglegs. Since I grew up there, I didn't think that was unusual but first time players didn't love that aspect.


The par 3s are very challenging with each playing between 190 - 205 from the back tees.


I think this is a very good representation of RTJ back in the prime of his career building a golf course that was meant to be a good private club but not a top 100. The course was built on an old farm.


It's very challenging and a good test of golf. Hole 5 is a good short par 4 with many options and holes 8-11 is a very solid stretch. The course is kept in good condition but not quite as challenging as it was 20+ years ago. Apparently the rough was very high and then greens were fast. I hear the horror stories of playing county courses that take 5-6 hours to play but this isn't the case at Hominy. It's a 4 hour 30 minute round almost every time.

[James Brown]

The Golden Horseshoe is pretty much untouched.

[Matthew Petersen]

I haven't played there in almost 20 years, but the aerials would indicate that Eisenhower Blue (at the Air Force Academy) is pretty much untouched. Assuming it hadn't been changed before I got there, which seems unlikely. It is classic RTJ all the way.

[Sean_A]

Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport has always struck me as a thoroughly sound RTJ course. It's not 50s, probably not 60s, but possibly 70s. When I used to play it I could drive about 250 yards and it seemed to be brilliantly, but sparingly, bunkered. You were always made to think. It was obviously done to a restricted budget and it brilliantly incorporated the needs of others who were not in the least interested in golf; walkers, riders, cyclists etc. All were given access to the site, but cleverly hidden from each other.


I think there are only two other RTJ courses in Britain, Moor Allerton, near Leeds, and (how much?) possibly Celtic Manor in Wales. I hope that someone else has played Stockley Park and can give an opinion. I think it is something that Sean might essay with interest.

Spangles is keen on this course, but I have never seriously thought about a visit.

Ciao

[Sam Krume]

Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport has always struck me as a thoroughly sound RTJ course. It's not 50s, probably not 60s, but possibly 70s. When I used to play it I could drive about 250 yards and it seemed to be brilliantly, but sparingly, bunkered. You were always made to think. It was obviously done to a restricted budget and it brilliantly incorporated the needs of others who were not in the least interested in golf; walkers, riders, cyclists etc. All were given access to the site, but cleverly hidden from each other.


I think there are only two other RTJ courses in Britain, Moor Allerton, near Leeds, and (how much?) possibly Celtic Manor in Wales. I hope that someone else has played Stockley Park and can give an opinion. I think it is something that Sean might essay with interest.

Spangles is keen on this course, but I have never seriously thought about a visit.

Ciao

Sean,
just been and read a few reviews on various sites. It seems the course is no longer what is was once. I wouldnt play there for a fiver if I was in the area let alone making a drive to visit and play!!!

[Mike Sweeney]

Has the Cornell University golf course changed since he built it?

Both Colgate and Cornell opened 9 holes at a time, but my impression is that not much has changed since those openings:



http://bigred2.athletics.cornell.edu/golf/history/history.htm


https://www.sevenoaksgolf.com/history


I played Colgate this summer and it was the same as I remember from my first visit 20 years ago.