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BCowan

Flagstick Bentgrass
« on: November 25, 2016, 08:20:40 AM »
Is it the new Fairway grass that will enable 2nd tier and public courses to be maint well?  Firm, less headaches for keepers, better presentation?  It's been tested for 10 years and shows it can handle a lot of abuse.  As technology one could see 10 years ago in a porsche is now available in a beatle today.  Will grass technology slip down into public and 2/3 tier private?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 06:31:06 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bent
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2016, 06:12:40 AM »
The new grass technology as pertains to turf types isn't cost prohibitive.  The cost comes in conversion, regrassing can be very costly and time consuming and the shut down time is often the reason why a lower end course can't afford to take the chance on regrassing in quick and effective ways.  If you rely on daily income to keep afloat then the only way to convert turf types is to do it gradually and while play is continuing.  Establishing new turf while play is in progress is very difficult especially with cart traffic in the mix.  In an ideal scenario you could realize cost savings from newer turf types that use less fertilizer and water if you could just get them in place.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bent
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2016, 01:40:44 PM »
I expected a thread on vandalism.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bent
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2016, 04:24:45 PM »
I expected a thread on vandalism.


You might not be wrong....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCowan

Re: Flagstick Bent
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 05:25:51 PM »
The new grass technology as pertains to turf types isn't cost prohibitive.  The cost comes in conversion, regrassing can be very costly and time consuming and the shut down time is often the reason why a lower end course can't afford to take the chance on regrassing in quick and effective ways.  If you rely on daily income to keep afloat then the only way to convert turf types is to do it gradually and while play is continuing.  Establishing new turf while play is in progress is very difficult especially with cart traffic in the mix.  In an ideal scenario you could realize cost savings from newer turf types that use less fertilizer and water if you could just get them in place.

Rob,

   I agree with you that it would be hard for public course to shut down and would have to have a solid spring to make up for lost fall revenue.  There would have to be an expectation of getting more money per greens fee over $40 per round or more season pass/members.  Two options close down mid Sept and do it all, or rope off areas of the fairways from carts and do this over a 2-5 year deal.  A scenario where a wealthy individual purchased the course he grew up on and wants to maximize it.  Obviously this isn't a good idea for every course.  This is one advantage of a new course being built, improved agronomy from the start.   

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bentgrass
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2016, 06:15:30 PM »
Advice from a cynic; give it a little time.  Ben, this is not the first time you have posted excitement over new cultivars as the  cure all for numerous problems.  Understandable for all of us are searching for the 'magic bullet".  In my experience, each of the new strains have strengths and weaknesses.  I can remember when Crenshaw Bent was all the rage not to mention L93.  Improvements keep coming but the process of growing grass suitable for golf under varying conditions is quite complex and does not remain constant.  So don't get too excited and understand that whatever one plants (or sprigs) there will be issues.  Keeping this in mind also protects the Superintendents from unreasonable expectations.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:03:05 PM by SL_Solow »

BCowan

Re: Flagstick Bentgrass
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2016, 06:38:45 PM »
Advice from a cynic; give it a little time.  Ben, this is not the first time you have posted excitement over new cultivars as the  cure all for numerous problems.  Understandable for all of us are searching for the 'magic bullet".  In my experience, each of the new strainshave strengths and weaknesses.  I can remember when Crenshaw Bent was all the rage not to mention L93.  Improvements keep coming but the process of growing grass suitable for golf under varying conditions is quite complex and does not remain constant.  So don't get too excited and understand that whatever one plants (or sprigs) there will be issues.  Keeping this in mind also protects the Superintendents from unreasonable expectations.

Shel,

   I amended opening post.  I was referencing it more for fairways due to Dollar spot resistance and being able to have higher HOC.  I'm sure you know about it, for the one course that has had it for 10 years is in the Chicago area.  It actually wasn't available last year and they have been holding off releasing it making sure it has had time to be studied.  There isn't any magic bullet just matching up characteristics on a course by course basis.  I remember L93 rage as with G2, have witnessed many regrassing in Ohio.  This was more directed at public or lower tier privates with bluegrass in their fairways.  Many variable such as shade, soil composition, drainage.  There is no denying how much less water and apps the new grasses deliver up north.  There aren't enough soil modification processes available IMO...   

BCowan

Re: Flagstick Bentgrass
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2017, 12:34:44 PM »
A nice video on Flagstick bentgrass    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9D8me-qPjs

http://www.canr.msu.edu/news/msu_hits_zinger_with_flagstick_new_turfgrass_expected_to_improve_golf_cours

“Most of the best discoveries are made through observation,” Vargas said. “The best place to look for disease resistance is in the middle of a big outbreak. Developing a dollar-spot-resistant cultivar has been a major research focus at a number of universities for the past 20 years. The fact that we at MSU were able to come up with it is very fulfilling.”

This grass also can be cut at a higher HOC, very versatile. 

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bent
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2017, 01:23:38 PM »
The new grass technology as pertains to turf types isn't cost prohibitive.  The cost comes in conversion, regrassing can be very costly and time consuming and the shut down time is often the reason why a lower end course can't afford to take the chance on regrassing in quick and effective ways.  If you rely on daily income to keep afloat then the only way to convert turf types is to do it gradually and while play is continuing.  Establishing new turf while play is in progress is very difficult especially with cart traffic in the mix.  In an ideal scenario you could realize cost savings from newer turf types that use less fertilizer and water if you could just get them in place.


+1 on this and SL's comment.  For a mid to lower tier course I have a hard time seeing a conversion working out financially.  Another consideration is eventually the poa infestation will happen.  Not a question of if, but when, and poa cares little about how input efficient the new bent is.  Poa is anything but input efficient.  So you get caught in the middle of keeping your new bent varietal lean, and the poa alive.  Hand weeding is obviously not an option, like with greens.   So the fairway will play softer and softer year by year, unfortunately.  There are some chemicals (e.g. Xonerate) that are starting to show some promise in poa control, but that's more $$$ still on top of the renovation costs.


If firmness and playability are the goal, my advice to mid to lower tier courses is to take the hypothetical regrassing dollars and instead use them to do the following (regardless of current fairway grass type):


1) Install quick couplers along the fairway to facilitate spot watering.  This allows for less overhead irrigation of fairways at night.


2) Invest in a verticutting unit, and adhere to the 4 t's:  Topdress, topdress, topdress, and topdress.  This is in addition to the spring and fall aeration schedule


My guess is these two pieces will provide playability enhancement at a fraction of the regrassing cost.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

BCowan

Re: Flagstick Bentgrass New
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 01:34:44 PM »
Tom,

   Much of poa has to do with sunlight issues, so heavily treed fairways is a waste of time.  Also overseeding with slit seeder can be done in late summer months before Poa is strong, which would vastly limit closing. (Talked to a keeper who did this and was successful). [Not the most cost efficient method]  Also I have spoken with a seed scientist for Flagstick Bent (FB).  It also can be mixed with a large amount of fescue and can handle the cart traffic.  Do you have experience with the new bents?  My close friend has 10-15% in his fairways and its going down from year to year after 5 years, could get down to 5% poa down the road.  He also has none in the greens.  Poacure can be a game changer if it gets to market.  This grass also is very good with low thatch levels. 

I agree with this below

1) Install quick couplers along the fairway to facilitate spot watering.  This allows for less overhead irrigation of fairways at night.


2) Invest in a verticutting unit, and adhere to the 4 t's:  Topdress, topdress, topdress, and topdress.  This is in addition to the spring and fall aeration schedule


I'd like to facilitate some turf discussion, particularly out of the box ideas, ones that have been successful. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 05:27:49 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flagstick Bentgrass
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »
What happened to Pure Distinction? Please tell me the era of Pure D is not over!

BCowan

Re: Flagstick Bentgrass
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 01:57:48 PM »
What happened to Pure Distinction? Please tell me the era of Pure D is not over!

 ;D , That's used on greens at top tier tracks  ;) ....   Very heat tolerant but little trouble with the ball marks recovering.