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Mark_Fine

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Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« on: August 17, 2017, 10:32:50 AM »

We all know that until what I will call "the hole location areas" at St. Andrews started to become "maintained areas" and the concept of "greens" originated, putting was not really a defined skill.  It has now evolved to where it might be the most important skill especially at the highest levels of the game (ask Jordan Speith).  It also can be the most frustrating skill for weaker golfers and why some at all levels turn away from the game. 


Has the evolution been good or bad for the game?

Blake Conant

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 10:49:42 AM »
Putting seems to be less of an art now than it was when the greens didn't stimp above 6.  Different putts required different strokes. You read about Bobby Locke hooding putts and putting draw spin on them when the contours called for it.  Walter Travis wristing putts depending how far away he was and what the break was.  The putt was much more of a golf shot.


Now it seems you just master a technique and use it everywhere on every type of green from every distance. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 11:47:02 AM »

Blake,


Is it really any different than the standardized full golf swing, matched shafts, etc.?  Or the Pelz Method of measuring distance for every shot?  When the object of a game is to shoot the lowest possible score, everyone starts refining techniques to that end, and over several hundred years, at least the best get better at it.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Blake Conant

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 12:16:06 PM »

I'm heading out to Ballyneal in a month or so to play golf with some high school buddies.  We want to have a Ryder Cup type tournament with no handicap adjusting, but our skill levels vary.  I'm trying to convince the group to experiment with the George Thomas system of scoring where putts count as half strokes and the par on a standard course goes from 72 to 54 (or in BN's case, 53).  George Thomas believed the putter was overvalued and this method more equitably weighed the clubs in the bag as well as helped bridge the gap between varying levels of golfers. 


Ballyneal, with some good half par holes, seems like an excellent place to experiment with such a system.


Has anyone else tried to play using putts counted as half strokes?

Eric LeFante

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 12:34:51 PM »
I think technology (of golf clubs and maintenance equipment) has completely changed what aspects of the game are most important. 50 years ago, the golf clubs were not very forgiving and hitting greens in regulation was very difficult and you needed to be a great ball striker to be a great player. There was a huge difference between great ball strikers and mediocre ball strikers. The greens were not very fast, which made putting easier. Two putting from 30 feet is much easier on slow greens and 5 footers are much easier on slow greens. Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, and Byron Nelson were some of the best ball strikers to ever live and they dominated in their day. Putting was a different story for Hogan and Snead.


Today, the difference between the great ball strikers and the mediocre ball strikers is not as big as it was because of technology. The clubs are more forgiving than they were, the balls are going much further, which equates to shorter clubs into greens. It's much easier to hit a green with a 9 iron today than it was with a blade 5 iron years ago. Jack Nicklaus was far superior with long irons than everyone else, but who needs to be a great long iron player in the modern game when guys have wedges into every hole?


But today's fast greens are way more difficult than the slower greens of years ago. Fast greens have put an enormous premium on great putting and there is a huge difference between the great putters and the mediocre putters on fast greens. In my opinion, the combination of the less separation of ball striking due to technology, and greens being much faster, has put too big of a premium on putting in the modern game.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 05:10:28 PM by Eric LeFante »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 01:49:57 PM »
Putting is the greatest equalizer
Even our puppy can get the ball in the hole


Our puppy can't hit a driver, so he would be at a significant disadvantage if counting a putt as a 1/2 stroke at Ballyneal
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 02:06:50 PM »
Faster greens, more break. Slower greens, less break. The quicker the greens the more important greenreading (eyesight?) becomes.
Slow greens, more loft on putter. Faster greens, can use less loft.
Other aspects to consider like - shots into greens - the slower the quicker the ball stops.
Faster greens - more costs but more jobs in the business as well.

Atb

Paul Jones

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 02:22:27 PM »
Counting Putts as half strokes = buying mulligans, string, red bombs in a scramble. It can be fun, but doesn’t follow the rules of golf.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 02:27:03 PM »
Putting is the greatest equalizer
Even our puppy can get the ball in the hole
Our puppy can't hit a driver, so he would be at a significant disadvantage if counting a putt as a 1/2 stroke at Ballyneal
:) 
I wish I could be half as good a writer as Mike.
It would've taken me 3 pages to say what he just did in three short and funny lines.

Steve Lang

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 02:59:17 PM »
 8)  I seem to have experienced more breaking curvy sloped greens on old courses, as they were kept slower, and things have flattened out as speeds have increased... did I miss something over the last 56 years or so?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 10:25:48 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kalen Braley

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 03:16:31 PM »
Putting is the greatest equalizer
Even our puppy can get the ball in the hole


Our puppy can't hit a driver, so he would be at a significant disadvantage if counting a putt as a 1/2 stroke at Ballyneal


Mike,


I was just going to say that making putts count half as much as strokes is going to further put good putters at a disadvantage.  My game is short and crooked, better and better as I approach the green, and best with putting.  Playing in this format would put me at an even bigger hole to my playing partner....

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 03:26:33 PM »
I'd be interested in hearing a bit more re: the "art" of putting from a century ago, and why it is necessarily better than the putting of today. I'm not convinced that the ability to put hook- or cut-spin on a putted ball is superior to the ability to impart a smooth roll on it while also judging the break and pace correctly. It's definitely a *different* ability - I'm just not sure whether I understand that it's a better one.


Part of what's beautiful and fascinating about golf to me is that a shot that travels three feet counts the same as one that travels 300 yards. I would not be in favor of the shots at the shorter end of that scale having their importance slashed. A great golfer is supposed to be versatile, and I think half-counting putts goes against a celebration of that versatility.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 04:25:04 PM »
Yes
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Fine

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 05:13:37 PM »
Lots a great posts.  I am not sure I would advocate the Thomas idea of a 1/2 stroke for putts, however.  But to me putting (and the greens themselves) might be what has changed the most of all aspects of golf and golf course design.  Bunkers are (or at least can still be bunkers), fairways (or short grass) is still essentially short grass, rough is still rough, water hazards are still water hazards, teeing areas (while much more formal and/or maintained) are still areas where you can place your golf ball (so not a big change),..., but the area around the hole (now called greens) has DRAMATICALLY changed and introduced putting as the most important skill.  I was curious what this group thought. 

David_Tepper

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 05:40:07 PM »
The evolution of putting has been good for the game.

The growing obsession with ultra-fast green speeds has not been good for the game.

JESII

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 07:21:29 PM »
Mark, of course you are correct on this. Deservedly so because it's half (or more of) the game , well more than any other single component of the course.


What's interesting to me, in thinking about question, is that the architectural part of that evolution was pretty much done 100 years ago but the agronomic/playability part of that evolution has really occurred over the last 30(?) years.


After all, are any of Doaks greens really more dramatic/exciting/interesting or creative than those at TOC, NGLA, Oakmont or Pine Valley?

JESII

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 07:30:29 PM »
For my money, my enjoyment of the game would decline considerably if green conditioning was rolled back to when everyone would like the ball rolled back to...


more so than if the ball were rolled back...and I'm not a roll back guy.

Ken Moum

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 07:24:39 AM »

Lots a great posts.  I am not sure I would advocate the Thomas idea of a 1/2 stroke for putts, however.

IIRC, Hogan advocated something like this about 50 years ago. And, there was an experiment in a professional event in the Paul Runyan era trying to minimize the effect of putting by using an 8-inch hole. The against the logic being used, it helped good putters more than bad putters.
But to me putting (and the greens themselves) might be what has changed the most of all aspects of golf and golf course design.  Bunkers are (or at least can still be bunkers), fairways (or short grass) is still essentially short grass, rough is still rough, water hazards are still water hazards, teeing areas (while much more formal and/or maintained) are still areas where you can place your golf ball (so not a big change),...,

I'm not so sure about that.  Bunkers are now one of the least punishing places to around a green (for any good player).

Rough? Well there's never been a time in golf's history where those out-of-play areas are managed to like they are now.

Fairways? The advent of modern lightweight fairway mowers have dramatically changed what fairways look like since I got really serious about golf in the 60s. Back then, nearly everyone mowed fairways with wheel-driven gang mowers pulled behind a tractor. height of cut in fairways has changed more than it has on greens. THAT makes it possible for good players to spin the ball as much as they want out of almost any lie in the fairway.

but the area around the hole (now called greens) has DRAMATICALLY changed and introduced putting as the most important skill.  I was curious what this group thought.

Bearing in mind what I say above, greens have changed, when I worked for GCSAA I talked to a few veteran superintendents about how much tings had changed, and it's even more than most golfers realize. When we talk about how fast the greens at places like Oakmont were, back in the day, there's more than a bit of skepticism because they know how low you could set a greens mower with the bed knives of the era.

But I recall how fast downhill putts were on the bent greens I learned on... Then it dawned on me.

Those bent greens had grain in them, grain that ALWAYS ran with the water flow. So downhill putts were WAY faster than uphill putts. Which made green reading and speed judgement even more difficult than it is today on "perfect" greens.

Finally, there's plenty of evidence in the data available from sources like Shotlink that putting is not the most significant part of the game today. Important for sure, but not more than other facets.

For instance, the best drivers gain more than a shot a round from the average drivers just off the tee. Rory is gaining almost 1.5 strokes. http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02567.html

Putting, OTOH, offers less potential. Rickie Fowler is the best this year, gaining ~.9 strokes per round. http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02564.html

If you look at the top few players in Total Strokes Gained, none of them are doing with the putter. Not Even Jordan Spieth, whose most signficant advantage this year is approach shots where about half of his advantage over the field happens.


Even in his incredible year of 2015 his strokes gain putting wasn't the most important part of his advantage.  What he did is excel at all aspects, gaining about a half shot from driving (.494), approach shots (.618), around the green (.471) and putting (.571).


His 2.154 total strokes gained was second for the year, but 1.583 was tee to green.  FWIW he was 15th, 11th, 9th and 5th in the four SG stats.


Now, for putzes like me, approaches and chipping/pitching have more effect than anything, but the reality, as espoused by Hank Haney is that a players POTENTIAL for scoring is almost entirely determined by how far he hits it.


I can barely get it out there 200 yards these days and in order to break 90 on a 6400-yard course, I need to do everything very well.  If I could go back 15-20 years (I'm 70 in two weeks), when I hit it about 30 yards farther, I would almost certainly be shooting around 80 like I did at the time.


Back then I played a course that would get dried out and fast in late July and August, and without fail the added distance it gave me allowed my handicap to drop into single digits. (Which caused me a lot of pain the following springs when I went back to "normal.")


Agronomy has certainly changed golf, but you'll not convince me that it's made putting more important, and certainly not so important that it's more than half the game.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mark_Fine

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 09:09:57 AM »
Ken,
No question "everything" has improved agronomic-wise.  However, I still contend that putting and greens have had by far the most dramatic difference.  Remember "greens" weren't even greens.  A player dug sand out of the hole they just played and used it to build a tee a few yards away to place their ball on to play the next hole.  You were really "chipping" the ball in the hole more so than putting it!  Now greens are THE most important aspect of any golf course and as a result, if you can't putt, you will never be very good at this game. 

Eric LeFante

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 10:00:01 AM »
Ken,


Wonderful post, great breakdown of Spieth's game in 2015. You proved that great players today still need to hit the ball well vs their peers.


My point is that hitting the golf ball was much more difficult 50 years ago with the old equipment vs today but I think putting on very fast greens today is much more difficult than it was on slow greens 50 years ago.



Mark Smolens

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 10:18:28 AM »
Putting is now, and has always been the easiest part of the game. There are very few people on the planet for whom the putter is not the best club in their bag. Why do I say that?

Place a ball 4" from the hole. Hit that shot 100 times. How many will you make? As long as you're trying to make it, you will do so 100 times. Have Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, or any great player perform the same task. How many will they make? The same.

Pick another club in your bag, or another shot, or any other part of the game for which you and I, regular folks, can perform 100 times in a manner that will match the greatest players in the world.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 10:19:40 AM »
Eric,
Your point is well taken but I am talking much earlier than 50 years ago.  I am talking about the evolution of a game that is hundreds of years old.  Believe it or not, "greens" and putting are relatively new concepts for the game of golf. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 11:47:46 AM »
If in life (and in golf) the choice is between entropy or increasing complexity, between getting busy living (complexity) or inexorably dying (entropy), I'm glad that golf moved in the direction of increasing complexity and specialization...
Peter 

Mark_Fine

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 12:56:47 PM »
Peter,
I am not sure the concept of greens and putting makes the game more complex?  Maybe it does, no need to debate.  My point was that the concept of formal greens and putting turned out to be a radical change from the origins of the game.


So what will be the next radical change?  I wouldn't say it is radical (but it is very rare); I am hoping to begin work soon on a course that will have no formal bunkers when we finish with it.  It will be more fun as well as more interesting than what is there now for a wide range of players and it will lower maintenance costs. I am quite excited about it. 

Thomas Dai

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Re: Has the evolution of putting been good for the game?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 01:12:05 PM »
George Thomas system of scoring where putts count as half strokes -


I imagine some of the greatest putters who are perhaps not particularly well known as high quality ball strikers would like to see the opposite, ie 1/2 shot for full shots and 1 shot for putts! :)
atb
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 01:14:21 PM by Thomas Dai »